CTA Tattler

I'm failing to understand how "more offerings of coffee, bagels, etc., on platforms and in stations" fits in with the ban on food and drink on trains. It seems as if the CTA wants to trade concession revenue for increased costs of cleaning cars.

Me too. Bagels and coffee at PLATFORM level? Are you sure you got that right? If no food is allowed, then no food should be allowed. It's not like they're keeping the trains clean as it is.

He actually said "verklempth"? (sp?)

The track maintenance would be nice, once all the really shitty stuff is fixed.

Amazing what not pissing away your maint budget on operations can do....

If I remember correctly from previous conversations, Huberman has said the food and drink ban would need to be rethought. I mean, it's not really enforced now, so why not let folks drink their coffee and increase fines for littering and whatnot. That way the CTA gets revenue from both the food and, theoretically, the fines. I'm a bit skeptical, but it could work.

I'd prefer they enforce the food/drink ban to having more options for people to spill on me or all over the seats.

You know, one can buy food and/or drink, then not eat or drink until one gets to a destination--work, for instance. What is do hard about that?

I'm much less concerned with bagels and coffee/pop as I am with people literally eating their dinner on the train (fried chicken?), which I thought was urban myth until I saw it myself on a recent Green Line ride back from Austin.

Josh... saw a woman on a crowded rush hour No. 22 bus trying to balance a tray with sushi on her knees while attempting to apply soy sauce and wasabi....

I've heard Huberman suggest that perhaps that food ban should be replaced with a much stiffer penalty for litering.

That would seem to make a lot more sense. The problem is people leaving their eating-related litter on the train - or discarding it by throwing it on the floor. The problem is not the eating or drinking itself. Hard to see how someone drinking coffee on the train on the way to work is, per se, much of a problem.

(And yes, spills can happen, but they can happen under the current rules, too - you're not prohibited from having coffee, for example, just drinking it.)

If they imposed a $250 fine for litering on the train, publicized it, and actually enforced it once in a while, it would probably make a world of difference.

I was on a MUNI train in San Francisco once when a fare inspector actually came through the car and asked to see everybody's proof of payment. One guy didn't have it, and spent at least 5 minutes trying to talk his way out of a very steep fine. I got off before seeing whether he ended up getting ticketed or not, but I bet you a free transfer that just about everybody on that train made sure has had a proof of payment with them on the train ever since.

See also the DC Metro trains. I think their total ban on food and drink is too extreme, but it's actually enforced and as a result you don't see so much as a french fry anywhere near those trains.

If done right, fine revenue should cover the enforcement cost, so it's not like this would place a burden on the CTA's budget.

If it is done right, fine revenue WILL NOT cover cost. I am sure it would while the enforcement is ramped up, but the end goal would be people NOT breaking the rule--hence, no more fine revenue.

Huberman's goals are very encouraging for the most part. The exception is loosening the food ban. The answer is to enforce it, not zap it. Litter is one problem with eating on the train, but not the biggest one. Does anybody really want to be sitting next to somebody digging into their enchilada or dog or burger or BBQ? Or slopping their ramen all over the seat? The CTA is public space, not somebody's kitchen table.

If Huberman wants to increase ridership the best thing he can do (after getting the trains back to 70mph) is having inpectors actually going through the train and ticketing eaters, litterers, radio players and all the other jerks. The total lack of control is what keeps so many people permanently off the L. The CTA needs to do some image work, too, but it has to be based on a new reality.

Forgot to say: setting a ridiculous fine is the politician's favorite way to pretend they're doing something about a problem. The way to end the food/drink problem is inspection and enforcement. The fines are just fine the way they are. All excessive fines will do is cause more anger against the CTA -- people want things to at least seem fair.

I think $500 fine for littering or spilling of a beverage should suffice AND another one of Ron's stepped up things should be zero tolerance for soliciting on the trains! There needs to be a LOT more security ON the trains, that can quickly call the police. I'm sick and tired of the "I've been released from prison" guy on my red line 3-4 times a week! How do we get these types arrested? I wish I had enough courage to tell that particular man soliciting on CTA is ILLEGAL and you can be arrested! So much for bettering your life and needing a 7 day pass for job interviews, you are breaking the law again! Solicitors damage ridership and the CTA's image. Some of them insist upon pushing their way through packed rush hour trains which is not fun or pleasant as well. Enough of it.

Speaking of concession and ads.... can the CTA cut their own TV commercials/newspaper ads out of the budget? Most people know the CTA exists by now and it's the only game in town, so... It's like tbose ComEd ads that showing how great they are (saving kittens, repairing downed lines in the rain, etc.) It's not like we have a choice, you're the only game in town. I don't mean the signage, just the promotional stuff. Unless it's a new service or something like that, it's just slick advertising.

And that cable access show that nobody watches can probably go too. Paying Gene Honda to narrate and the production crews involved has to cost a few bucks....

I want to address the new train car prototypes. From what I see, there are not enough handrails for standing passengers (as is the current situation). During rush hours, we all try to cram into the train and find something to hold on to. People crowd around the few handrails there are leaving gaps where there are handrail gaps. The poor people without handrails try their best to stand their ground, but inevitably wobble, lose footing, and knock into their unwitting neighbor who's holding cup of hot coffee. If there were handrails/hanging handstraps/whatever evenly spaced across the span of the train car, I really think the train would fit more people. This is an essential consideration if CTA intends to move toward the long benches.
Here is an example of what I mean: http://flickr.com/photos/chad041893/1226064883/
And in action: http://flickr.com/photos/marley1/1435289700/

Maybe individual hanging hand-holds are too expensive. At minimun there should be an overhead bar!

Trixyone, I'm completely with you on this.

Although, I will say this: I had a discussion with the CTA via e-mail in which they informed me that there is no loss of seats between the new models of subway cars and the current one. I had thought there would be less seats, based on an old Tribune "Getting Around" column.

The one bright side I think is that it can't be that hard, technically, to put more hanging straps on a bar. So when the cars are put on the line and tons of people complain about not being able to get a hold, it's not like they'll need new cars.

It's my understanding that they enforce aggressively no eating and taking two seats. The enforcement might cost more than the fines, but it has to be taken into consideration with cleaning savings, both materials and man-hours.

Odd, the Metra lets you eat and drink -- even alcoholic beverages! And there never seems to be any noticeable problems with it. They even supply a handy trash can that allows people to throw away their trash when they're done!

Johnson: Sure fines could cover the cost of enforcement. The fact that compliance goes up after a while doesn't just mean less fine revenue - it also means less of a need for enforcement. No one's proposing having inspectors roam the trains searching for problems that don't occur much.

Joe Blow makes a good point about Metra. Admittedly, they're better funded, but still - there's a different culture on those trains and the CTA would do well to try to promote it on its trains, too.

Cleanliness and basic decorum do not require banning every conceivable personal comfort. (The train also isn't your personal living room - does that mean they should get rid of sitting and talking on the El?)

Wow. All that important stuff that was covered in the presentation, and we've latched onto the food issue with more gusto than Doomsday.

But as long as that's where we are, I'll join the foray.

A law that isn't enforced is worse than no law at all. No new laws should be passed if they aren't going to be enforced, and existing laws should be repealed if they aren't going to be enforced.

Now, making the assumption that a law will be enforced, we need to establish what it is that we're trying to accomplish before deciding what we're going to do.

First and foremost are safety concerns. Open containers of beverages should be out based on safety concerns.

Next comes the cleanliness, and cleaning cost issues. For that, we should ban making a mess, not having the potential to make a mess. In other words, just because your candy bar might get smeared all over the seat doesn't mean that's what's going to happen. Smearing your candy bar on the seat should be against the law, but eating the candy bar shouldn't.

So essentially, that means your drink needs a lid, your drink or your food shouldn't be spilled, and you need to take your waste with you for proper disposal.

Very simple. People not creating a hazard or a mess can go about their lives without worry that they'll be given some capricious ticket. We've narrowed the illegal activities to activities that are a problem. That should make enforcement easier to accomplish.

Does it matter whether fines collected pay the cost of enforcement? NO. The idea is to discourage illegal activity, not profit from it. Passing laws with the expectation that they will be broken often enough to pay for a force of people to enforce those laws is just a waste of resources.

Also, if illegal activities become revenue generators, then respect for the laws disintegrates. Eventually it could become our civic duty to break a few laws in order to generate some revenue for the police! That's why in many jurisdictions the police departments do not get to share in the fine revenue they produce. It's tainted money to them. Using fine revenue to fund law enforcement is an incentive for law enforcement to violate people's civil rights.

The laws should be based on the goals we want to accomplish: Safety being foremost. Reducing maintenence costs secondary. Going any further just undermines all laws.

People have complained about eaters on the Metra, too; however, for some reason, most of those who eat full meals seem (seem, I say) to properly dispose of the remains, as opposed to leaving chicken bones scattered, as on the 85 bus recently. I may see a wrapper or 3 on Metra, but not actual foodstuffs. I will admit that I don't take it during the weekdays very often, but even when I have, I don't see the food. Another factor in that probably is that there are multiple conductors on the Metra, who do have a chance to go through the train at the beginning & end of the line.
Last year I think it was, I posted a link when someone complained to Metra about the food & Metra's response was along the lines of "what makes you think we could enforce that? Look at the CTA!"

All of that said--I agree with you, Rusty, about limits as to what kind of food/drink can or should be brought on.

Ron Huberman is a visionary. That's all I've got to say.

" Passing laws with the expectation that they will be broken often enough to pay for a force of people to enforce those laws is just a waste of resources. "

Huh? Pray tell, how can something that's expected to pay for itself be a "waste of resources"?

There is a finite supply of law enforcement officers. There's a finite supply of people who have what it takes to become a law enforcement officer.

Deploying these resources on laws that are expected to be broken just to generate revenue is taking these resources away from enforcing laws that we actually don't want broken.

A prime example of this is the small town that creates a speed zone with a speed limit far lower than what is needed for safe operation of the road just to bring in ticket revenue. So where are the police officers? Not patroling the neighborhoods. Not combatting any real crime. They're out writing tickets to create revenue for the department.

Passing laws to generate revenue will in the end just foster greater disrespect for all laws.

Many years ago when traveling in Maryland I saw a huge sign on the Interstate listing the fines for traveling various degrees over the speed limit. The effect wasn't that people stopped speeding. The effect was people looked at the "menu", and decided what they could afford.

Fines should be punitive. Treating fines as a revenue generator makes a mockery of our legal system. (And it's really not that hard to find many, many examples to prove that.)

You want people to respect the laws? Stop looking at the revenue generation aspect when creating new laws, and start looking at what you're really trying to accomplish.

I don't know why so many people keep harping on the handholds. Every time I get onto a Red Line train that has no seats available, I shove my way past the dimwits blocking the door and move into the middle or end of the car, where the back of every bench has a nice metal bar to hold onto. It's even at the right height to hold onto. This isn't the first you've heard of it, is it?

That issue aside, I see a lot more garbage and litter on the street than on the CTA. Occasionally on the Red Line I see a RedEye stuck between the seat and the wall. Once in a while I smell dinner that someone's bringing home. The CTA's pretty sparkly, even shiny, compared to a typical downtown, Loop, or Mag Mile block. Sure, there are exceptions, but you folks are looking past a whole lot of nasty if all the grime you're seeing is on the CTA.

Most people I see eating or drinking on the El do so without spilling or creating a mess. So what's the problem? With a cross-town CTA trip taking the same time as a flight from Chicago to New York, you cannot blame people for wanting some sustenance.

There is nothing so easy but that it becomes difficult when you do it
reluctantly.
-- Publius Terentius Afer (Terence)

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