CTA Tattler

...given the contextual clues of the "Stony Express," I'm going to hazard a guess and assume that the guy's problem (in the first example) is less of a class thing and more of an "he's a reprehensible University of Chicago student" thing...

Thanks David, because generalizing by where we go to school is so much better and more socially acceptable than generalizing by race. I'll readily admit that some of my classmates don't have a very good idea of how to handle themselves in certain social situations, but that doesn't mean that we're ALL rude and awkward and it most certainly doesn't mean that we're all racists.

Personally, I was asked by a Cottage Grove bus operator when I boarded the bus southbound (I had to go to the UPS distribution facility at 85th, but I also have gone to the Target on several occasions) if I was lost, if I knew where this bus was going ("Ma'am, this IS a SOUTHBOUND bus, it is not going downtown"), etc. I suppose in a superficial way she was "trying" to be helpful, but it most certainly made me feel like she was ACTUALLY trying to get me off her bus and telling me I was basically unwelcome south of 60th or 61st. It's just as bad as people on the street telling me to "get the f*** off my street, little white girl" when I'm walking back from the Green Line. Why is this so-called reverse discrimination so okay? Nobody does a damn thing about it.

Who says it's OK? What have you done about it?

Let me try to tease the racially-motivated moments out here, including those in Jessi's comment:
- "Large lady"'s epithets for nerdy asian guy
- Classist comment by n.a.g.
- Old guy's rants
- Bus driver's warnings to Jessi
- Washington Park hecklers' "little white girl"

I'm going to go ahead and write off the old guy's rants as some sort of psychological disorder. We all know of people like that. It's painful to be around, but it's just misfiring neurons, not racism.

I've experienced similar things from bus drivers, too. Charitably, they were trying to help me out (there are certainly a lot of confused 1st years and math grad students in HP). Less charitably, they were trying to head off a potential scene when they got to 80th and this college kid starts freaking out. Either way, the driver is legitimately trying to handle an unusual situation, which does not constitute racism.

As for the "ching-chong" rants, the classist comment, and the "little white girl" heckles, yep, those are racist. But those are just words. They are just a symptom of underlying *actual* racism.

The questions we should be asking are:

Why are there "black areas" and "white areas" (and lots of other areas) of the city, that are stable and large enough that a bus driver would be surprised to see someone travel between them?

Why are people living just a few blocks apart so foreign to one another that they would disagree on something as simple as eating on the bus?

Why do people mentally equate worth as a person with a job position?

That's racism, although unfortunately it doesn't make such an amusing story.

Not that it couldn't happen, but I have doubts about the veracity of that first story. Dan just happened to have a tape recorder on him? Hmmmmmmm.

Jessi...

While I will concede that the "get off my street" comments are racist, the bus driver alerting you to the fact that the bus was going south was not his way of telling you that you're not welcome but actually WARNING you (which is a problem to me in itself). He was trying to alert you to the fact that the bus is going to a predominatly black are (I'm guessing) and that perhaps you didn't know that and as such might be in for trouble. He wasn't trying to tell you that you CAN'T go there.

And what the hell is "reverse discrimination"? That's like saying discrimination is SUPPOSED to go one way, but when it goes the other way, wow, that weird and not supposed to be that way.

You ask "Why is this so-called reverse discrimination so okay? Nobody does a damn thing about it." Yeah, why can't we stick with regular old discrmination and leave it at that?

I've got my share of stories too, of racial encounters in "foreign" parts of the city. Almost everybody has a story. After a while it gets to be a pissing contest. Can someone tell me a story of when someone of one race HELPED someone of another race on the CTA? Or has that never happened?...

If I were in nerdy Asian guy's place, I would have done the same thing. I don't suffer fools gladly, and the fact that the bus driver wasn't doing his job to keep the bus clean would have made me fly off the handle.

Just being realistic. That nerdy Asian guy IS a better human being than those sunflower-seed-dropping scumbags, who ruin the transit the rest of us respect.

^and I'll add, race doesn't enter it.

Just this past Monday, I had been ignoring a wandering transient on the El who screamed that I was a "dumb white bitch" because I wouldn't give him money. How does the fact that my family came from western Europe contribute to my reluctance to give this man money? And when stuff like this happens, God knows I can't say anything about it because then I'm the bad guy somehow for being sensitive.

I accept that pretty much everyone has their own, internal stereotypes of people, but I would never even THINK of uttering a racial epithet with regard to ANYTHING that would upset me. Yet, on Wednesday night someone cut in front of me in traffic and yelled some racist crap at me. The other driver was a Latina; am I supposed to respond similarly and call her some racist name too? I guess I'm just a "dumb white girl" after all because I think all of it's wrong; I will never say that kind of garbage to anyone and I'll hold my tongue when it's said to me, even though it boils my blood. What CAN I do?

In the first example, the Asian guy was clearly not at fault. It was the black woman throwing seeds on the floor in the first place. She was completely at fault--as was the idiot bus driver. If the woman hadn't been treating everyone's public transportation as her personal garbage bin (the Asian guy was right that it was his bus, too), there would have been no problem to begin with.
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Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people who litter on Red Line trains. Rarely do I board a car and not see someone's trash strewn all over. I'm also getting a little sick of dodging great gobs of spit deposited all over the train stations.
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And I'm sick of the rudeness. Recently an elderly white woman boarded a crowded Red Line car. There were two open inward-facing seats near the door, but two black women--apparently a mother and daughter--had their feet propped up on the seat. The white woman asked them to move their feet so she could sit. Her reward was being roundly and filthily cursed out for about 5 stops by the black women at the top of their lungs. They seemed to get a real kick out of it.
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But what are you supposed to do? If you try to police this kind of crap behavior--witness the Asian guy--you only make things worse and end up being accused (falsely) of racism or classism or whatever-ism. If you sit still and say nothing, you're somehow culpable. ("Well, what are YOU doing about it?")
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My rule: Unless someone's life is being threatened, I pretend I'm out of town.

"Just being realistic. That nerdy Asian guy IS a better human being than those sunflower-seed-dropping scumbags..."

Yeah, he's a prince...

"Nerdy Asian guy: I'm the one in college, I think I know more than you do, given the fact that you're a bus driver. What do you say to that, huh?"

Dropping sunflower seeds all over the bus is wrong and digusting, but I'll take that any day over some elitist prick. And race doesn't enter into it.

Oh boy. The comments here are really something. Jeez louise.

First of all, U of C kids are not all geeks, but they are often not from around here, and not particularly aware of the subtle interactions between race and geography in Chicago. Thus, they might sometimes rub natives the wrong way. Thus, having such a kid tell you that he knows better than you because he's a college student is likely to incense people. Although the jackass with the sunflower seeds is a jackass.

The carzy Serb was a crazy Serb. People looked at your wife like she was crazy because she made eye contact with him. That was a mistake. He's not necessarily racist, but he is a nut, so don't make eye contact.

As for the "reverse discrimation," this is exactly the intersection of race, class, and geography. I wonder why blacks living near the U of C would be concerned that young white professionals not become enamoured of their neighborhood. Why would that be? Hmmmmm. As for the driver telling you the bus is southbound, here's a hot tip. You are not welcome south of 61st. You just aren't. You probably never will be. The driver gets that. I get that. Why don't you? I thought you U of C kids were smart.

Finally, why are there areas in Chicago that are black, white, or other. Well, there are a number of historical reasons, some of which are extremely distasteful, some of which are just normal immigrant entry process. Any other questions about that?

"And I'm sick of the rudeness. Recently an elderly white woman boarded a crowded Red Line car. There were two open inward-facing seats near the door, but two black women--apparently a mother and daughter--had their feet propped up on the seat. The white woman asked them to move their feet so she could sit. Her reward was being roundly and filthily cursed out for about 5 stops by the black women at the top of their lungs. They seemed to get a real kick out of it."

Just curious... how does race play into this story? Did the black women call the white woamn a "white.... whatever"? if not, why was the race of the people involved germane to this story? Just curious.

"As for the driver telling you the bus is southbound, here's a hot tip. You are not welcome south of 61st. You just aren't. You probably never will be."

Tell that to the white people who live in Morgan Park and Evergreen Park who still ride the Red Line from work downtown to 95th street and catch the various buses from there home. Anyone can go anywhere they want to or have to in this city, regardless of if they're "welcome" or not. You just have to learn when, where and how to get to and from there in the safest way possible. It's called learning the city.

Dude,
Can I tell it to Oak Parkers who ride the Green line home?

It is learning the city, and I see no element of racism in a bus driver telling a U of C kid who may not know the city where they are headed. It is actually a service. And I stand by my comment that the U of C kid is unlikely to ever be welcome south of 61st. Probably not in Morgan Park, Evergreen Park, South Shore, or anywhere else south of 61st.

Well, we can address the bigger issues of bigotry and prejudice here, but if we do so, the couple of examples we have here may not be the best representation of the overall issue. And we really don't have the space, either.

So I'm just going to look at the "Asian Guy" example here.

First, it didn't start out as a racial or class thing. It was just one person trying to control another person's actions. Period.

If you want to be the manners police, that's fine. But don't get so defensive when you're called out for being a rude jerk. What goes around, comes around. If you're going to criticise the behavior of others, be ready to be criticised yourself.

It's one thing to correct the behavior of someone in your own circle, be it a family member, or just a friend you're hanging with. It's another thing to do so to a stranger.

Did he really think that she'd have a revelation, and suddenly decide to stop littering seeds? Apparently he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

But the whole event goes over the top with the comment: "I'm the one in college, I think I know more than you do, given the fact that you're a bus driver."

Once he uttered that thoughtless remark, there was simply no way the situation could improve until the parties were physically separated. He crossed the line from critisising behavior to personal insults. And he did so while he was out-numbered, too. How smart is that?

When you live in the city, sometimes you have to put up with insufferable people who do things like throw seeds on the floor of the bus. But that's no excuse for spouting personal insults at people.

He may have thought he was pointing out how much better of a person he is than everyone else, but all he did was bring himself down to the level of the mentally ill street people who can't control what they're yelling at those who pass by.

Again this is another case of multiple wrongs never adding up to make a right. It doesn't matter that it started with a woman discarding seeds where she shouldn't have been. He took it to a whole new level. That was his choice. He could have controled himself, but he didn't.

It's actually ironic that he didn't control himself when he was trying to control the others.

Notice that it doesn't matter that he's Asian. It doesn't matter that she's black. Everyone was doing something wrong. But it was that kid who decided to escalate the situation multiple times.

Was he just so stupid that he doesn't understand a damn thing about how humans react? Or did he have a death wish?

"It is learning the city, and I see no element of racism in a bus driver telling a U of C kid who may not know the city where they are headed."

Neither did I, if you read my previous comment. I surmised that he was merely warning her about possible problems (yes, because she is white). He wasn't telling her she CAN'T go there.

As far a being "welcome", not sure what that means. If you mean they won't be greeted by people with big "Welcome" banners and open arms at the 63rd street stop, probably not.No surprise there. But only an idiot would not know that there are some neighborhoods where you might have trouble, and, yes, because you're white... or black... or Latino. But regardless of that, people of all nationalities have to and DO use public transportation to get to other less-welcoming neighborhoods. I mean, not everybody who works at St. Bernard Hospital or South Shore Hospital, etc. and is white drives to work. How do you think they get there, fly?

Corvid, maybe you don't see the irony in Jessi's complaint that "Nobody does a damn thing about it," so to spell it out: Yes, she is one of those nobodies. And that's the only instance in which I'm going to say "What are you doing about it?"

(And the larger point is that she expects that some person *can* do something about it. Why would anyone else have a solution she doesn't have?)

And since this is about race (and, to some extent, stereotypes about race), and people have asked whether anyone's ever had a good experience, yes, yes I have. A couple of years ago a friend out in Oak Park had a party one Saturday afternoon that dragged into Saturday night, and my friend and I ended up having to take the Blue Line back with the trip starting around 10. I can't guarantee that we were the only two whites on that crowded and lively train, but it was a great ride, and we were included in the conversation and festive atmosphere. Rather than the sullen rides I'm used to on the Red Line, we talked about movies, music, and politics with complete strangers. A good time was had by all.

"Just this past Monday, I had been ignoring a wandering transient on the El who screamed that I was a "dumb white bitch" because I wouldn't give him money. ... And when stuff like this happens, God knows I can't say anything about it because then I'm the bad guy somehow for being sensitive."

Why can't you say anything? Just call him a dumbass f*cker and move on. You don't HAVE to continue the race references because he did. I can lambaste the mental skills and ancestry of anyone with the best of them without resorting to race. And have quite often... I'm good at it now!

Kevin O'Connor, proprietor of CTA Tattler, calmly walks around his kitchen, preparing a meal.

Bread, peanut butter, and jelly combine to make the appropriate ingredients.

Deciding he needs something warm, Kevin reaches into the cabinet and pulls out some Campbell's soup.

Reaching into the drawer, he grabs a can opener and works it around the rim.

Peering inside, he sees that somehow, a can of fish bait was exchanged for his soup. Emptying the can into the sink, he sees a mass of squirming elongated invertebrates.

"Hm," he muses to himself.

"I appear to have opened up a real can of worms."

I don't even get why you would repeat such an appalling story. What good is that? A much better post would be about the earthquake this morning and how CTA bridges are crumbling everywhere.

Kevin O'Connor? Did the guy from "This Old House" take over the Tattler? Is he going to rename it "This Old Train?"

@Mike

I was wondering where you were going with that until the end. Good one! I agree

My gosh, there's so much going on here, but it's valuable to get it out on the table. Let me put in my 2 cents.

First of all, the actual racist and classist expressions related here are completely unacceptable as far as I am concerned. I don't like that anyone thinks it, but even if they do, they ought to keep that thinking to themselves. Having said that, I observe that things get turned into classism and racism that really don't have to be, and here's how I think it happens.

I believe there are and should be certain basic standards of decency in public behavior that should be expected of everyone, on the grounds that they do affect everyone else, not just individually but the general public environment. These are things which make plain good sense and probably none of us would dispute, which are enshrined in the city ordinances and/or the rules the CTA posts prominently. And when someone is caught in violation of these standards, naturally they want to let themselves off the hook. Their first line of defense is to make it about the people who do observe and expect the standards, not them, the violator. That starts with an accusation of classism, which immediately is pivoted into racism. At that point the other party is automatically a bad guy--though of course they make it much, much worse if they respond with actual racism. But what of those who don't? They're still found guilty by onlookers of thought crimes, and the pressure is great to cave in and bear all the blame.

Unfortunately, too many fall into this trap, guilted by the desire to be all tolerant and multicultural. But by letting ourselves be scammed into this corner, we are enablers of bad behavior. And worse, we encourage racism. Agreeing that "it's wrong to expect more of these people" is to suggest that a person of another social background and/or race is incapable of learning and practicing good behavior. And to pretend that basic decent behavior is merely some arbitrary construct that some stratum of society uses to set themselves off from others, is equally illogical and, if indulged, will undercut the basic societal framework that offers more liberty and dignity for all. So can't we all at least agree that THAT is the real racist hogwash in the scenario?

Too bad Concerned Asian CTA Rider Guy wasn't here for this...

http://fortysomething-politics.blogspot.com/2008/04/depaul-beer-party-from-sox-field-to.html

"If you want to be the manners police, that's fine. But don't get so defensive when you're called out for being a rude jerk."

That's absurd. I can understand all kinds of reasons why people usually choose not to do so, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling people out for antisocial behavior, like littering. The woman doing the littering was absolutely in the wrong and had no basis for saying a thing to the guy except "sorry" or "okay." In an ideal world, the woman would have been fined heavily so as to deter littering in the future. Barring that, social disapproval is the next best thing, and the kid should be applauded for supplying it.

If it weren't for the "I'm the one in college" remark, I'd say the kid who complained about littering deserves a medal.

The bus driver should be suspended if he can be identified.

Just to clarify the last statement of my previous post: Given that the train operator who called passengers "stupid" was suspended, I'm assuming that suspension is the normal discipline for minor verbal abuse of riders by bus and train operators.

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but there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling people out for antisocial behavior, like littering
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It can be right or wrong in your book, but unless it's your job to be doing so, it falls in the category of rudeness.

If you feel that it's more important to engage in a futile attempt to control the behavior of someone else -- a stranger, no less -- then go right ahead. That's your choice.

But if that's the choice YOU make, then don't be surprised when people correctly assess your behavior as being rude because it is. That your rudeness is a reaction to their bad behavior doesn't make it not rude. It's still rude.

We're back to the whole myth that two wrongs make a right. Two wrongs are just two wrongs no matter how you try to justify it.

You want to take your friend to the side, and tell them their behavior is bad, it's still rude. But it may be within the bounds of your relationship to do so. But that doesn't extend to total strangers.

When you start telling total strangers how to act, unless it's because they're putting you in imminent danger, it's rude.

(Yes, I know I just opened the door to hear about how some people can twist littering seeds into imminent danger. Let the drama queens begin their rants.)

The bottom line is that some snot-nosed kid who's going around telling strangers how to act in public does NOT deserve a medal. He's just another example of how society has declined -- just as much as the seed littering woman. Both are guilty of rude, boorish behavior. But only one took it upon himself to escalate the situation multiple times.

In the end, seed littering woman: Guilty of littering. Obnoxious guy who kept escalating the situation: Guilty of disorderly conduct. Had he simply shut his mouth after saying his peace the first time, he would have only been guilty of being rude. But he made the choices to go beyond being rude, and taking the gravity of his behavior far beyond the original offense of littering.

Medals for no one. They were both wrong.

(Yes. That's right. Both sides can be wrong! Contrary to what some people believe due to lack of logic skills, just because one person is wrong, it doesn't mean the other is right. That's not how it works.)

"When you start telling total strangers how to act, unless it's because they're putting you in imminent danger, it's rude. "

Well Rusty, it's really all relative. What's "imminent danger" for one person may be just "rude behavior" for another person.

What if the Asian Guy didn't say anything and he or someone else got up and slid on the shells and hurt themselves?

If this woman felt it was okay to throw sunflower seeds and no one stops her, maybe next time it would be pop or other food.

What is wrong with society is that everyone is labeled politically incorrect, rude, racist, not a team player, etc. . . you pick the label, if they disagree and speak up.

Maybe he took it too far by continuing the conversation. He should have quickly realized that continuing would have gotten him nowhere with this woman.

Littering on the CTA is a crime. The bus driver should have done his job and told the woman to stop when it was brought to his attention. Maybe the best thing would have been for the guy to report the bus driver and situation to the CTA and not continued the dialogue.

So yes, I will agree that there was "wrong" on both sides. But, isn't it also wrong to watch a crime be committed and not do anything about it?

Littering is against the law. It's a civil violation, not a criminal issue.

And I just knew someone would somehow twist it out of perspective, and claim that it could be imminent danger.

If you think that someone littering is imminent danger to you, then you must have a very difficult time when you leave the house each day.

The correct course of action would have been to report it to the bus driver. If not satisfied with the bus driver's response, then report the driver. And then that's the end of it.

Escalating some boorish littering, a minor civil offense, to a melee, is, however a criminal act. Disorderly conduct.

It is definately all relative. But as gross and distasteful the image of some fat Black woman littering seeds on the floor of a bus might be, it's not justification for a know-it-all punk Asian elitist to act out rudely, and escalate the situation as he did.

So I'll grant you that it's all relative. But littering isn't a criminal act. Only twisted logic can classify it as imminent danger. But enciting a melee *is* a criminal act, and people's safety was endagered by the conduct of the guy who kept escalating the situtation.

And it all started because he thought two wrongs (her littering, and his rudeness) could possibly make a right.

So relatively speaking, he was more in the wrong than she was. He isn't a martyr for civilized behavior in public. He's a poster boy for how uncivilized we've become far more than she is.

Just wanted to ask a question, am I the only one who works with the public? I work for a state agency and I don't understand why people think we are the police. We are NOT the police. We can NOT control someones actions. We can NOT make someone stop doing something just because its bugging you. There are procedures to follow and steps to take. I would just like to know what did the student think the driver was going to do? Put the lady off the bus? I ride CTA everyday and if the drivers started to put people off the bus for every rule they were breaking, it wouldn't hardly be any people on the buses or trains. As for the people commenting that the driver should be suspended for not "doing" something to the lady spitting the seeds on the floor, next time you see someone on the bus doing something they shouldn't, you say something to them. They might not be as gracious as the large lady who just resorted to cursing the student out. Personally I think just because you go to college doesn't make you smart. It was evident that this student wasn't smart about the way he handle this situation. He could have walked up to the driver and told him without making a scene that a lady was spitting seeds on the floor. Maybe the driver would have handled the situation differently. Then again, maybe not. He (the student)won't really know because decided to make a scene. People will act out, try to fight, harass you for even looking at them wrong. But if you approach them in a tactful way, they might react differently. Try that the next time your in a diffcult situation.

How can the Asian guy who actually spoke up against someone spitting their food all over the bus end up being the bad guy to some of the commenters? His line about being in college was a little over the top, but his premise was good. Someone's spitting crap all over the bus, begins some racist rant about why it's ok for them to continue spitting all over the place, the bus driver doesn't give a shit...but somehow he never should have said anything? What is every other comment on here about, if it's not rude, annoying, or irritating behavior on the CTA? I'd like to see more people stand up to this kind of shit, though most of the time I think people just kind of resign themselves to the fact that it's just not worth the trouble. As evidenced above.

Rusty's comments simply make no sense. Most people's behavior is constrained by social norms and the prospect of others' disapproval - not by the imminence of a police officer writing them a ticket. If people only follow the law when there's a police officer standing watch, we'd live in a chaotic and unpleasant society. So far from being "rude," the reactions of everyday people to antisocial behavior is basic ingredient of social order. I'm not saying the guy on the bus used good judgment in the way he went about it, but it is absolutely a public service to call out offensive or illegal behavior.

I know some people are offended by the comments of the kid on the bus, but try to set aside issues of class and race and just think about what you're suggesting for a minute. If you see someone kicking a puppy (or a person) would it be "rude" to tell them to stop? Depending on the situation, perhaps it would be wiser to call the police, but that's a separate question. The idea that objecting to bad behavior is "rude" is really just kind of bizarre.

Now, perhaps making a mess on the bus is not as harmful as kicking a puppy, but it's harmful nevertheless. It wastes other people's money in cleanup costs and reduced fare revenue (there are people who avoid public transit because it's "dirty") and it lowers the quality of life for other passengers on the bus.

Perhaps you think that someone should just get a pass if she's breaking "minor" laws or rules, and perhaps you would do nothing in that situation. But how does that make it "rude" for other people not to give the woman a pass? It's those other people who give a damn who, collectively, are keeping society more livable for all of us.

If everybody just looked the other way when people behave badly, this would be a pretty awful place to live. So props to everyone who stands up for basic decorum and for other people.

Pregnant woman gets on train. Asks nondisabled young guy sitting in nearest priority seat if she can sit down. Other nearby seats all occupied by elderly passengers. Nondisabled young guy tells pregnant woman "go screw yourself" and goes back to reading the paper.

Rude for other people to say something to the guy?

Maybe better to just let things be and let the woman stand? I mean, she's probably not really in any danger by having to stand, just some moderate discomfort.

After all, what business is it of yours trying to "control" the behavior of the nondisabled young guy?

"We are NOT the police. We can NOT control someones actions. We can NOT make someone stop doing something just because its bugging you."

I think this is a common fallacy. OK, it's true the person or entity that is the proprietor of any kind of facility is usually not the police, but that doesn't leave them powerless to control bad behavior there. Indeed, management has the responsibility to set and communicate expectations for behavior, and take measures so that a few don't ruin it for everyone. This includes asking them to cut it out or asking them to leave. Not wanting to offend *anyone* is a cop-out. By worrying about offending the offensive, they end up offending everyone else!

The crazy muttering man on the 80 Irving Park bus is someone I may have come in contact with before. One night when coming home from work sometime around 11:30 PM, I made eye contact with him, while just sort of looking around the bus. Didn't think it was a big deal. He looked back at me and started yelling. He looked extremely furious. I couldn't hear exactly what was said, since I had my headphones on, but I know there was quite a few 'fucks' and 'shits' being thrown around. Luckily it was right before my stop, so I just gave him a look and walked off.

Gotta love the crazy people on the CTA.

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Most people's behavior is constrained by social norms and the prospect of others' disapproval - not by the imminence of a police officer writing them a ticket.
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Indeed, management has the responsibility to set and communicate expectations for behavior, and take measures so that a few don't ruin it for everyone.
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Absolutely. But don't tell that to someone who actually believes the falicy that "the customer is always right."

And there are ways for the proprietor -- or even an employee in an establishment -- to politely correct someone's behavior. Ways that would be rude if done by a fellow customer.

I have no problem with the idea that people should expect proprietors and employees of establishments to enforce rules of conduct. My only problem here is when those very same people think the rules don't apply to them because they're the customer, and the customer is always right. As long as we're reconciled on that point, I'm okay on this one.

Otherwise I'll have to get rude again.

You're right, Brian. My point was that proprietors and employees tend to get very confused these days about whether they're allowed to "tell someone else what to do." They're confusing "you can't do that" with "you can't do that HERE", which is a very different thing. It is this abdication of responsibility that induces "always-right" customers to try to fill the vacuum out of frustration--and as you say, they often make matters worse because they have neither the legitimate authority nor the diplomatic skills.

Oops, sorry--I meant Rusty, not Brian.

Yep, while proprietors can make and enforce their rules, employees are sometimes facing work rules that put them in Catch-22 situations.

I'm pretty sure that bus drivers aren't allowed to eject anyone from the bus, for example. Anyone here realistically think that if he asked/told the lady to stop littering seeds that she would have? I suppose we'll never know for sure. But given the restraints of his limited powers, hoping that "Asian Guy" gets pissed-off enough to get off the bus may have been one of the better tools at his disposal.

But we also can't toss this one in the lap of the CTA, either. Their rules about what kinds of things a driver can/can't do are rooted in safety. Given the situation, the driver should have called dispatch to get the cops out there after "Asian Guy" escallated the situation twice. This, of course, would have taken the bus out of service. "Black Woman" might have gotten a littering ticket, or she might have just gotten a stern talking to. Depending on whether "Asian Guy" calmed down or not, and how much of the story as it was related here came out, he might have gotten a stern talking to, and put on the next bus, he might have gotten trespassed from CTA property, or he might have gotten ticketed for disorderly conduct.

Perhaps there might have been some magical words that the bus driver could have said to de-escalate the whole situation, but instead of taking a bus and a police squad out of service to settle the situation, the bus continued on it's way, the cops didn't come, and no one got ticketed, trespassed, or arrested. I'm not going to say his means were totally justified, but the ends were acceptable.

Yes, this all started because someone was littering, and littering is wrong. But the whole thing got escallated out of proportion by "Asian Guy", the bus driver was able to keep the bus in service, and no one got hurt despite the repeated escallations by "Asian Guy".

In this case, there were a lot of things that us Monday Morning Quarterbacks can be critical of, but the bottom line is that this became an event because of one outspoken jerk, who some people still see as some sort of perverted hero.

Hopefully we don't see too many of these vigilanties because eventually one of them is going to escalate a minor situation into a shooting, and some inocent person will get caught in the crossfire.

Rusty, you sure seem to hate "Asian" guy a lot. Are you "Black Woman"?

Defiling a public space with garbage and defying anyone to stop it is a way for those who feel no ownership to exact retribution from those who've excluded them. This may not even be conscious, but it is a form of aggression on society. It is very sad and I don't know how we're going to solve this.

By the way, the person speaking "serbo-croation" could have been serbian, croation, bosnian muslim, macedonian or slovenian. They all speak serbo-croation. I think it shows ethnic bias to assume it was a serb.

Yeah, I totally assumed he was macedonian myself. Shame on all of you.

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Defiling a public space with garbage and defying anyone to stop it is a way for those who feel no ownership to exact retribution from those who've excluded them. This may not even be conscious, but it is a form of aggression on society. It is very sad and I don't know how we're going to solve this.
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By the way, the person speaking "serbo-croation" could have been serbian, croation, bosnian muslim, macedonian or slovenian. They all speak serbo-croation. I think it shows ethnic bias to assume it was a serb.
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Perhaps a bias, but more likely just an assumption based out of ignorance. I know I don't know the difference(s) between any of those ethnic groups, nor would I even recognise their language, let alone their dialect. But I might guess something in that general area. That guess would be based on ignorance, not a bias.

So would assuming it was a bias... would that be a bias itself, or just ignorance? Or do the sematics really matter?

So Rusty, if I follow your logic correctly, when the person is standing in front of your house peeing against your door you shouldn't say anything because you're not in imminent danger and there isn't anyone around who can do anything about it anyway. Besides, he'll be done in a few minutes; just ignore it rather than causing a fuss, right? Then when he comes back tomorrow, because he got away with it today, same response. Yes, this is much better than yelling at the guy so it deters him from coming back again to do the same thing another time. Brilliant!!!

You know I see why some things never changes. EM can you really say that the situation your speaking of and the situation that happened on the bus are the same? First of all your comparing a public place to a private place. It's totally different defacing something that belongs to a private owner. Were talking about public transportation. Now remember that word because its very important. PUBLIC. Like I mention before it is wise to watch what you say. But alot of people who are on here saying that "that's what wrong with our society because no one says anything" are the main ones who don't say anything themselves.I challenge each person who is critizing Rusty, next time you get on the bus or train and see someone eating, drinking, smoking or doing something their not suppose to on public transportation say something to them yourself. Don't bother informing the motorman or the driver. And just to inform you EM, I totally understand that littering is wrong. But no one who's critizing Rusty's logic is giving a scenario as to what should have been done. By the way calling the cops because someone is spitting seeds on the floor? See how fast they would have came out to the bus for that. And as evident in the train derailment (which is much more serious than someone spitting seeds on the floor) people get impatient and start to complain and leave. Which is probably what would have happened if the driver told the lady to stop (and she probably wouldn't as evident in her comments to the student)pulled the bus over to the side, called the police and then had to wait for the police to come. By the time the cops would have came out (if they did come)the bus would have cleared out and everyone would have boarded the following bus including the lady spitting the seeds out. Now that's brillant.

So, Marie, following your logic, it's okay to deface PUBLIC property not PRIVATE property. And if I want to get away with it, I just need to make sure that it will inconvenience everyone else so no one will bother doing anything about it.

Seems to be what you are saying above.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice that "it is wise to watch what you say".

And we wonder why people graffiti things and deface public property.

There are too many people being allowed to get away with the little things, that eventually lead up to big things. People need to learn to respect other people and their environment. Littering aside, the woman spitting seeds was disrespecting both.

The Asian Guy was right to call her out on it. The bus driver, at the very least, should have told the woman to stop. Maybe calling the police is over the top, but to do nothing is also wrong.

Who knows, maybe if the bus driver said, "Ma'am please don't spit your seeds on the floor", she would have stopped.

And before you say that's a silly idea, no one really knows what the reaction would have been. Remember, the only stupid idea is one that is not spoken.

cantbelievethis:

Accept my challenge. Why don't you say something when someone is doing something they're not suppose to. Also what are you gonna do if after you say something they get up and sock your ass and get off the bus. I would like to see how fast you say something to someone else again.

If we all walked around afraid, we'd all be in trouble.

'nuff said.

Say something when your friends and family and other people in your circle of influence do something wrong. Depending on your relationship, it may be your duty to say something, but at the very least, it's acceptable -- assuming you know how to do it right.

But if it's not your job, or your personal property, it is not your place to confront people doing rude, crude or socially unacceptable things.

It may be a different story if you're talking about actions that create immenent danger. But only a logically deficient mind can turn littering into one of those situations.

But if you want to be a rude jerk, go ahead and take-up Marie on her challenge. See how people react to your outspokeness, and perhaps maybe you'll learn why it's considered rude to correct the rude, crude, and socially unacceptable behavior of strangers in public.

Then go ahead and escalate the situation even further before trying to enlist the help of the people you could have alerted in the first place. Go ahead and create a major situation, get them involved, and test them on how well they can de-escalate the situation you just escalated. And then be critical of the performance, and escalate the situation once again.

There are rules to social interaction. "Black Woman" violated one when she littered seeds. "Asian Guy" violated another when he confronted her. He then went on to escalate the situation before getting an authority involved. That authority may not have handled it as well as he could, but it was out of control already. His choices amounted to: A) Politely ask two impolite people to stop their behavior which had already gone beyond just being inpolite, B) Pull the bus over, and call the police, C) Stand up to the guy who's already escalated the situation twice, posturizing as being someone that you wouldn't want to deal with if you escalate the situation again -- aka, bluff in hopes that the big jerk will retreat.

B, pull the bus over and call the police, would have been the most correct answer based on policy. A, ask the people to stop is about as likely to work as asking people to move away from the doors works. That leaves C, which actually worked out pretty well until the peanut gallery got critical.

Earlier I hoped that we wouldn't see a bunch of vigilantes targeting rude and crude people in public. But if becomeing a vigilante is what it takes for someone to learn how wrong "Asian Guy's" actions were, then so be it. Just let me know where you're going to try it out so I can have a better chance of avoiding the eventual brawl that'll result.

The ediquette rule that you don't correct the rude behavior of strangers in public is both a foundation of civilized society, and a good idea if you don't like getting physically hurt. But if you really still think it's a bad rule to live by, then put-up, or shut-up. Just don't expect me to contribute at the fundraiser to pay your hospital bills.

I think Rusty just hates "Asian" guy.