CTA Tattler

Honestly, the timing of this major work starting at the same time as the southbound 3-tracking was what pushed me to the 147 for my morning commutes. A longer, more crowded commute on the Red Line in the morning is bad enough, but then to end it with the whole mouse-in-a-maze deal trying to squirm past all the other commuters really drove the nails into the coffin for me.

I haven't been at the Grand stop in a while, which sounds like a good thing after reading this. But, a few comments about the CDOT press release:
1. They do not know grammar.
2. In my opinion, the picture of the revamped platform doesn't really look that much different from the old platform.
3. And, does anyone else see the irony in the statement: "This project further demonstrates Mayor Daley’s continued commitment to public transit.” ?

"This project further demonstrates Mayor Daley’s continued commitment to public transit.”

They're joking, right?

Shoulda been done 10 years ago (like say, when they had a big parking lot there for construction staging), but at least it's finally happening. Being in the heart of a tourist and employment district, it's vitally important...one of the most important stations in the system, and it had inadequate capacity and was disgustingly dingy. Please get Clark/Division, Harrison, Clinton/Congress and Division/Milwaukee done quick too (maybe even before the Olympics....we can dream).

Yesterday I was walking through the mentioned "7-foot-tall barricades on either side of a narrow walkway" and saw a line of about 20 people going the other way, waiting patiently, single file, to cross the street! I was so shocked.

These new farecard machines don't vend any unlimited passes - WTF?

Why spend all the money to put in these machines and not have them vend everything? Except for some differences in color and style (none of which is functional in nature), the farecards are all the same, so why continue to make people wander all over god's green earth to find a private store that sells a 7 day pass?

New York has the exact same machines and they dispense 7-day passes. CTA's should do the same. But, I keep telling myself, we have smart cards and New York doesn't. It's all about the small things. :P

Actually, NYC Transit has started introducing the smart cards.

But more significant than that, they've already added most of the features of the Chicago Card (and more) to the regular magnetic fare media: The "Easypay Express" program offers the automatic re-filling of fare balances and online accounts linked to credit cards, etc. Also, 30-day passes purchased with a credit/debit card have had "balance protection" (if the card is lost or stolen, you can call them up and get a new one prorated for however much time was left on the old one).

And all of their vending machines sell all of their unlimited passes: not just 7-day, but 1-day, 30-day and (most recently) a 14-day.

Aside from throwing farecard sales business to CVS, the only conceivable reason I can think of for the CTA not to do this is that our unlimited cards are painted different colors.

Attention CTA: We can get by without the colors.

The CTA has spent all this money on these new machines. Why not use them to their full capacity?

No use crying about any of the construction going on. It's kinda like bitching about the weather.

On the other hand.........this ALL SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE 30 years AGO!

Actually, I tend to use the 1-day visitor's pass on days when I come into town. Since I don't go downtown every day, but on the days I do I tend to go to various locations, that pass usually makes the most sense for me. I don't understand myself why they can't sell all the pass types at all the stations. The only thing I can figure is that they can get more money off people when the passes are unavailable. I wasn't even aware of the existence of this type of pass for over a year. If not for those 1-day passes, I would probably wind up spending $8 every time I came into town using a regular transit card. I don't think that the savings provided on the Chicago Card would add up.

Re dude's comment:

Unfortunately, when it comes to the CTA, you do have to wonder if the rationale mentioned by Dude is indeed what motivates the CTA.

If it is, then it's a particulaly bad reason for the CTA to withhold conveniences from its customers. If the unlimited cards are indeed priced too cheaply to make sense for the CTA, then the solution is to increase the prices -- not to sell the passes at the wrong prices but only at inconvenient locations.

Relying upon passenger inconvenience and frustration as a revenue generator is a poor long-term strategy for ridership growth.

The CTA should be making it as convenient as possible for people to purchase the fare media they want to purchase. Having a reputation for being a well-coordinated and easy-to-use system will be of far greater monetary value to the CTA in the long run than whatever short-term benefit they are getting by making unlimited passes hard to find.

For future reference, every Dominick's and Jewel seems to sell the various CTA passes (1-day, 3-day, 5-day, 7-day, 30-day), so those are a safe bet rather than "wandering all over god's green earth." Also most "Currency Exchanges" sell them too I think. Between Dominick's, Jewel, and Currency Exchanges, the coverage for availability is pretty good, but those locations should perhaps be better publicized.

Also, there are some assorted credit card vending machines that sell the passes, but I wish there were more of them. I know of ones located at O'hare, Midway, Union Station, and Chicago (Red line). There may be others.

Sorry, but I don't share the same view on this. YES, construction is a pain. And YES, it will be darker and uglier for a while, but in the end we'll have a much nicer station there! One we can all be proud of as Chicagoans!

As long as we're on the multiday passes - why are the month passes so expensive? Let's say you commute every weekday for a year - using the Chicago Card you'd pay $910 (only $827 if you add $20 every time you recharge the card; even less if you leave off sick days, holidays, and vacation days). Using the month pass, you'd pay $900.

The whole point of having a month pass is to entice commuters to buy the things so that, once they have them, they'll take transit instead of the car on nonwork trips since it's effectively free. How many commuters don't bother with the month passes since they hardly save any money or actually lose money on commuting costs and then drive instead of taking CTA on the weekends or evenings?

I've never used the month passes so let me know if there's something wrong with the above. But if there's not, the price for the month pass should be cut by at least $5.

"The whole point of having a month pass is to entice commuters to buy the things so that, once they have them, they'll take transit instead of the car on nonwork trips since it's effectively free."

Where did you get that? That is not at all the purpose of the monthly pass. Why would the CTA want to encourage people to use the CTA for non-work trips when they actually would be paying less money than they are now? That is what you are suggesting. It does not make any logical business sense at all. The monthly pass is intended for low income riders and others who regularly use the CTA three, four, five or more times a day. Those are the only people who save money over the regular fare. It is not like Metra's monthly pass which saves money for poeple who commute to and from work every weekday.

MK: Whether an unlimited pass is worthwhile is strictly a function of how often you use the CTA during the period of the pass. What does being low-income have to do with it? Either the unlimited pass saves you money or it doesn't.

As for the availability of the passes: the point is that there are no Jewels, currency exchanges, or whatever at the train station. When you go to catch the El and find that your pass has run out, why on earth would you want to have to walk (sometimes miles) to find some random store that happens to sell CTA passes? What kind of train system doesn't sell its own fare media at the train station?

If it somehow makes sense to sell CTA farecards at the supermarket rather than at the train station, why not stop selling all fare cards at the train station and just sell them at Jewel?

Jake: It's worth noting that your calculation only applies for people with no transfers, but I think your general point is right on.

" MK: Whether an unlimited pass is worthwhile is strictly a function of how often you use the CTA during the period of the pass. What does being low-income have to do with it? Either the unlimited pass saves you money or it doesn't."

I never said being low-income has anything to do with it. Read my post again. You are I are agreeing on this issue. The unliminated pass saves you money if you take a certain amount of trips for the period the pass is good for. Below that it doesn't. Income level has nothing to do with it. The only time I mentioned income level was in response to a Jake, who was talking specifically about the monthly pass. And what I said was that it was " intended for low income riders and others who regularly use the CTA three, four, five or more times a day." I was only talking about the monthly pass, not any other unlimited passes. And as you can see, I said "and others" which specifically means that I am not excluding other income levels in my point. And if you read the rest of my sentence you will se that I say exactly the same thing you did when you were arguing with me. That usually is a good indication that you don't understand my point. Like I said, whether it makes economic sense to use it depends on how often the person rides the CTA. I mentioned "low income" as the prominant (but not exclusive) users of the monthly pass (just the monthly pass, not unlimited passes in general) because those who are not low income would normally not ride the CTA three or more times a day (not including transfers) for just about every day of the month. Obviously, many people of all income levels ride the CTA three or more times a day often but you would have to do that just about every day of the whole month for the monthly pass to be economical. Those who are not low-income will often (certainly not always or even mostly but often) take cabs or drive for non-work trips. A person really would have to take the CTA almost every time they are going anywhere (to shop, visit friends, etc.) for the montly pass to make economic sense. The people who do this are more likely (but not always, I guess that is worth mentioning again) low-income. Is my point clear now? I have went completely out of the way to make sure this post is clear to you.

"Why would the CTA want to encourage people to use the CTA for non-work trips when they actually would be paying less money than they are now? That is what you are suggesting. It does not make any logical business sense at all."

Fortunately, CTA is *not* limited to profit considerations - it can pursue policies for the public good. One of those public goods should be to reduce overall car use. And one good way to do that would be to make the price of a monthly pass low enough that everyday commuters would all buy it and then leave their cars at home when they made nonwork trips as well.

I think there are very few people who are currently discouraged from using the CTA for non-work trips because of a $1.75 fare (or $3.50 round trip). In many, if not most cases,(for example, if they are commuting to the loop, lincoln park, the gold coast, or some place like that) the $3.50 is still increadibly low when compared to the price of parking and gas. It also is very low compared to the cost of taking a cab. So making the rides cost nothing additionally to what they already paid is not going to encourage a signigicant amount of people to use the CTA instead of driving or taking a cab. And when people do drive to places where it is more convenient to do so than to take public transportation they do so almost entirely because of conveinance purposes, not based on comparing prices. I have never (and I can't think of anyone else I know who has either) considered the price of driving vs. public transportation when I am deciding which to use on a trip to the grocery store, or to a restuarant, or to a friend's house. If there is not a major parking cost, I go by whichever one is more convenient. And, of course, if they are short trips of less than two hours (such as to a store) the round trip price is only $2.00 on public transportation anyways. Your suggestion is not going to have the positive consequences that you think it would. If public transportation is a good alternative for a particular trip it already is priced low. All your suggestion would do is diminish the revenue for the CTA, which would mean they would have to make up for it in higher fares or less extensive service. And that will discourage people to leave their cars at home.

I have a Chicago Card Plus. I get it through work. I use the CTA to get to work 5 days a week, let's say 50 weeks a year. That's 500 rides in a year or $1000 if it's $2 a ride. I'm spending $900 a year on the pass (which I'm not, I get a tax break getting the pass through work) I'm saving $100 a year using the pass just for work. I would really miss my CCP if they suddenly discontinued the program and went back to having to go buy a monthly pass every month.

This is my el stop for work. It is definitely dark and old-basement-feeling now, but I just try to think about what it will be like when it’s done! I feel bad for the drivers who have the limited lanes and detours (especially tourists who aren’t anticipating it and don’t know where to go). The single file street crossing is kind of a pain, especially since during rush hour you have people with suitcases and big briefcases, and then you can’t even always get one person in each direction, but rather it is truly single file. I’m lucky in that I start early and leave early, so I avoid the actual rush, and I’m a brown-liner, so when I have the time I walk to/from the Merchandise Mart instead of transferring at Belmont, thus avoiding a dreary start to the day. Besides, it’s not like it was nice and clean and pretty and efficient to begin with, and it won’t last forever!

speaking as a driver (i do take CTA a lot, but haven't used this station in a long time)... but this route was part of my commute home so i've seen it progres... coming westbound on grand is a mess right around here. even worse, there aren't any obvious "detour" signs suggesting you should go elsewhere. but the biggest problem i've seen is actually pedestrians coming from the southeast corner... they built giant concrete barriers and there's absolutely no way for them to see if there's traffic coming without popping their head into traffic. the obvious solution is for pedestrians to just wait until the walk light is given, but of course a lot of people have trouble doing this.

MK: Regardless of how many bitter lines you want to devote to trying to take it back, the fact of the matter is that you stated that the monthly pass is intended for low-income people, which aside from being factually inaccurate also perpetuates an unhelpful stereotype about public transit which, thankfully, is less common in Chicago than in most other places. (And adding "and others" doesn't change the import of the comment in any particularly important way. Consider whether "I want to fire some black employees" is somehow all that much less racist if you add "and others" to the end. If you didn't really mean "low income" then you wouldn't have said it.)

Anyhow, more significantly, your cost analysis is flawed because it simply compares the cost of a CTA trip to the cost of driving, as if there were no other considerations. First, the $2 fare is absolutely a barrier to taking the CTA; I've heard plenty of people say they didn't bother waiting for the bus because "the cab ride for four of us would have been less anyway" or comments to that effect.

But second, and more significantly, your comment is premised on the idea that alternatives to the CTA already cost so much more that making the CTA a little less expensive can't possibly make much of a difference. That analysis is flawed, because the lower cost of CTA fare also offsets non-monetary advantages of driving or taking a cab, such as increased convenience and decreased waiting time.

So whether to take the bus for $2 or a cab for $10 absolutely can be a "close call." While few people probably go through the exercise consciously, there's presumably a monetary value that can be attached to the convenience and other advantages of a cab, depending all kinds of factors (time pressure for the trip, weather, predictability of CTA service, etc.). If the extra convenience is worth $8 then the $10 cab fare and the $2 CTA fare are competative, and lowering the CTA fare $.50 or $1 may well tip the scale, especially if this is a type of trip that will be repeated frequently, leading the savings to pile up over time.

It's also worth noting that for driving, the marginal cost (at least the perceived marginal cost) is probably *less* (not more) than CTA fare for many trips. Outside of the Loop parking is often nominal or free, and even if you drive a Hummer, the cost of gas is only about $0.25 per mile of city driving. A two-mile trip to the supermarket, with free parking, would be just $1 round-trip in gas, in most people's minds. So paying $3.50 or $4.00 round-trip to take the bus instead does not "make sense" to most people, but paying half that might.

(Yes, there should be some depreciation figured into the driving costs, but if you can get the populace at large to consider the cost of depreciation in their decisions about whether to drive, you will surely win some sort of award in the near future.)

Irk:

I don't think there has been anybody who has took issue more than I when people have stated that the public transportation is just for lower income people. I have got into several arguments with people who have implied that. Would you like me to link you to those posts? What part of the words "monthly pass" don't you understand? I was specifically talking about the monthly pass, not all unlimited passes, not the CTA as a whole , and certainly not public transportation as whole. I am truly baffled as to how anybody could take that from my post. Please don't put words into my mouth. I'm not even going to continue the argument about my use of the words "and others" since that is a periphiral point by now.

And I did mention cab fares in my post. So I don't exactly get your suggestion that I was only specifically comparing the CTA to the cost of driving. I actually have found it absurd that the media, when discussing these things, never mentions cabs and talks and only talks about the CTA and the use of cars. I once e-mailed Jon Hilkovich about that specifically. So you don't need to lecture me about ignoring cabs.

By the way, two other points.

1. Not only is it bizarre to suggest that I was implieng that only low-income people use the CTA (or, as you say, public transportation as a whole) on account of the fact that I was specifically talking about only one form of payment(and no, I didn't say that only low-income people use that form of payment). But also it is strange for you to get that impression since me stating that the pass is intended for "low income riders and others who..." would clearly indicate that I am fully aware of the fact that middle and upper income people use other forms of payment. Otherwise there would be no use for me to state this in regards to the monthly pass. If it were just lower income people it would be nonsensical to discuss lower income people tending to use one particular form of payment. So not only was there nothing to support your suggestion of what I was implieng, it actually should have been clear from my remarks of the opposite.

2. The fare for the CTA is $1.75, not $2.00. Not that this matters in your argument. The $2.00 fare is only for people who are not concerned about the price enough to take a few minutes to get a Chicago Card or Chicago Card Plus. In that case, this argument would be mute since they wouldn't care whether they save money with a monthly pass.

MK, your low income comment is there for all to see, so there's probably little more that need be said about it. However, I have to say I don't quite see why you think your addressing the comment to monthly passes transforms the comment into something more accurate or less objectionable. Also, aside from its value as a red herring, I'm not sure what the whole "what part of 'monthly pass' don't you understand" rant is about; no one disputes that you made comments about the monthly pass. Since the implication of this was apparently not clear to you: those with monthly passes are, for obvious reasons, likely to be among the most frequent users of the CTA. So a comment about monthly passes being intended for low income people is tantamount to saying that frequent use of the CTA is for low-income people. But accepting for a moment the worldview in which the monthly pass is thoroughly divorced from frequent CTA use and use of other unlimited passes, so what? The comment is still factually off and, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, a very unhelpful stereotype.

By the way, if anything the monthly pass is somewhat inaccessible to many low-income people, because it requires greater cash flow to spend $75 on public transit all at once. It is for this reason that for very low income people, even those for whom it is economically 'rational' to use the monthly pass, there are many who use 7-day passes or simply pay-per-ride cards, despite the higher cost over time.

As for cabs vs. driving, you've perceived a "suggestion" in my post that is not there. You mentioned both driving and taking a cab, and likewise my post addressed both.

I take it that the variety of reasons people may not have a Chicago Card aren't of too much interest to you, so if it makes you happier to pretend that everyone concerned enough about price has a Chicago Card, I doubt anything I might say will shake you of that faith. In any event, feel free to substitute "$1.75" for "$2.00" in the point I made about the importance of lower fares. If in your mind, the argument then collapses, well, okay.

All I ever stated about the monthly pass was that it is intended for (and used by) people who use the CTA several times a day. In most cases, it means they rarely drive, take cabs, are driven by friends, walk, bike, or travel by any other method other than by the CTA to social events, restuarants, the store, or any other place(including, of course, work). No, I never stated that all these people are low-income. It does no good to state that my "low income comment is there for all to see, so there's probably little more that need be said about it." After all, it is there for everybody to see and, in fact, people might actually look at it. In case they don't, I will repeat my statement here: "The monthly pass is intended for low income riders and others who regularly use the CTA three, four, five or more times a day. Those are the only people who save money over the regular fare. It is not like Metra's monthly pass which saves money for poeple who commute to and from work every weekday." I really am mystified as to how you could interpret that to mean that income level is the determining factor as to whether a monthly pass is attractive. Like I already said (but I guess it is neccessary to repeat), some (perhaps even thousands) of higher income people do take the CTA three or four or more times every single day. But that is not the norm. Certainly, many higher income people take the CTA for many non-work trips. But just not every trip and not every day. Mostly they walk, drive, take cabs, get driven by friends or family, or do something else for quite a few of their trips. So low-income people are the primary demographic for the monthly pass. That doesn't, by any means, mean they are the only people who use it. But they are the primary demographic and that was my only purpose for mentioning them in my post. The primary demographic for Duncan Donuts customers is blue coller workers. But that certainly doesn't mean that many white coller workers don't purchase anything from there (in fact, a huge amount do). The reverse is true with Starbucks but there also are many blue coller workers that frequent there. Many television shows target a specific age or gender demographic for their viewership. But that doesn't mean that many viewers from other demographics don't also watch it. In fact, I can think of numerous shows that I watch in which I am not in the target demographic. Demographics do not imply that they are the only people who use a product. There is nothing unusual (nor certainly to be ashamed of) if others use it as well.

mk, every attempt you've made to "clarify" what you meant has really reinforced your stereotype of low-income riders. Your best strategy might be to not try to "clarify" yourself anymore.

I'm comfortably middle-class and I've never even had a driver's license. Contrary to your stereotype, while I strongly prefer the CTA, cabs, my bike, and rides from friends are all a part of my life. (Let me emphasize that they're a pretty minor part too.) As Cheryl and irk have both pointed out, the monthly pass is much more likely to be used by people who work for companies that subsidize its cost and turn it into a pre-tax benefit. (Regardless of income level; the benefit's available to executive officers and mailroom workers alike.) Even people I know who do regularly ride their bikes have monthly passes and most of them make more than me.

So if you actually have a citation for your odd statistical claim that

"Certainly, many higher income people take the CTA for many non-work trips. But just not every trip and not every day. Mostly they walk, drive, take cabs, get driven by friends or family, or do something else for quite a few of their trips."

I'd love to see it. If not, you should stop making things up because, as we're trying to tell you, you aren't helping yourself or your point.

Bob S.

For around the seventh time, I am very aware that many non low-income people have a monthly pass. I never said otherwise. In fact, I know at least two middle to upper class people who have never had a driver's license, just like you. I don't have any stereotypes of anybody (and to be clear, I am certainly not suggesting that most low-income people only use the CTA to get around). I am just stating that most users of the monthly pass are low income. They are the target demographic. I guess it is worth repeating again, that this does not mean that they are the only ones who use it. Understand?

MK, I understand; I'm asking for your source for that information. A public-record statistic as you're claiming this is has a source.

MK and Bob S. -- Frankly, I'm getting a little bored with your personal battles here. Maybe take this issue offline and fight it out over personal email? Thanks.

-- Kevin

Then maybe I shouldn't bring up the FACT that as part of the transit benefit package, I have to sign a form that states I will not use my CCP that I get through work at a discount for anything other than work-related rides. So when I use the CTA for personal trips, I have to pay another way. OF course I walk where and when I can, but I do use transit more than I have someone drive me, use an I-Go car, or take a cab.