CTA Tattler

I suddenly thought of Bob Newhart's classic comedy routine about bus driver school, and to my delight I found it on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7313jJENZnc

"You see how she spun all the way to the front of the bus that time?"

speaking of buses, for those who take them, I'd be interested to hear if bus bunching has actually improved for anyone.

I got off the red line at Addison last night and watched 2 eastbound 152 buses pull up at exactly the same time.

A few days before that, I was waiting for a westbound 152 for 25 minutes while 3 eastbound buses went by while I was waiting (the 4th EB came as I was boarding the WB bus). It was getting to the point where I was wondering where all of these buses went.

Finally, once my westbound bus came, I could see another west bus off in the distance following a few blocks later. What the heck?

This is why when it comes to choosing between walking/biking or waiting for a bus, I generally won't choose the bus.

Well, it is LSD & we all know that LSD is a total wreck of a street.
Somebody probably fell down when the bus hit yet another one of Daley's potholes.

And I can't wait for the commenter to write that it's the state's fault that LSD hasn't been fixed up.

If Daley didn't dump so much salt on the streets of this city, but had the snow plowed to the side, the streets wouldn't look broken up paths through the wilderness!

If you don't salt enough before you plow, you get something called "shelf ice". Essentially, a snow plow acts like a Zamboni at a hockey rink.

The primary contributing issue in the creation of a pothole is the freeze/thaw cycle. Not salting enough creates additional freeze/thaw cycles.

When you've got a major street that's a half-dozen years past the time it should have been resurfaced, it needs *more* salting, not less salting.

You shouldn't even drop a plow blade on pavement until you've got *at least* 2" of snow on it. That's just asking for trouble. You'll put wear and tear on the street, you'll put wear and tear on the plow blade (and they aren't cheap), and you'll spend between 4 and 6 times the overtime you would had you just salted.

Salt may not be the greatest thing for the envirnment, but if it wasn't used, you wouldn't be able to afford the taxes it would take to maintain the roads. Nor would anyone be happy with the ice rink that would occur every time there was a little snow.

If your infrequent snow fall melts completely the next day (like in Dallas), you can get along without salt. And if you live somewhere that once you get a snow pack it stays frozen until spring (like a good 500 miles north of here), you can get along without salt. But in that band between those two extreems, there is no affordable way to deal with snow and ice other than salt. More plowing is definately NOT the answer.

"The Second City ranks only third of the four finalists selected Wednesday in Athens by the International Olympic Committee's executive committee. Technical evaluations by an IOC working group cited weak spots in Chicago's transportation plan"

Huberman and the CTA will lose the Olympics for Chicago. Thanks Hubie.

A contributing factor to the pothole proliferation could be the fact that the Dept. of Streets and Scamitation can't seem to pave worth crap. They also feel the need to create random holes for no apparent reason therefore compromising the integrity of the asphalt. A good example was several years ago when Western had been resurfaced and paved from Lawrence to Roscoe. Not long after the paving was complete and the asphalt pristine, they began digging holes that didn't seem connected to any sewer work or electrical repairs. Potholes formed due to the freeze/thaw cycle Rusty discussed therefore necessitating further paving and patchwork. Ahh, job security....

Huberman and the CTA will lose the Olympics for Chicago.

god i hope so.

Me too, kt.

Didn't you guys see we are the best big city at snow removal?

"And I can't wait for the commenter to write that it's the state's fault that LSD hasn't been fixed up."

Wait no more, here's one:

"The Illinois Department of Transportation is responsible for major repairs to Lake Shore (U.S. Highway 41), a state-designated route. IDOT officials said they are working on a timetable to resurface the section from Foster to Irving Park, but they haven't provided a specific commitment.

The IDOT budget is in danger of taking a big hit in Gov. Rod Blagojevich's plan to cover deficits elsewhere in the state budget,..."

from here:
http://www.mcall.com/news/chi-lake-shore-drive-speed_08apr08,0,4970789,full.story

more info here:
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/lake.shore.drive.2.701294.html

Seems like the State of Illinois is responsible and that the city is allowed to make minor repairs(i.e. temporary pothole patching)

So, over the next several years, which gets rebuilt first, the remaining Red line stations, bridges, & retaining wall or Lake Shore Drive payment and bridges? My guess is Red line slow zones get eliminated before either occurs.

I wouldn't want to be an express bus driver or rider right now, at least not without an additional personal shock absorber. Could also be why the suspension is failing on the 147 and other express buses.

Wrong, wrong, wrong Rusty!
The more salt you dump, the worse the freeze thaw cycle destroys the street.
And a street long beyond resurfacing time needs less salt not more. You have it all ass backwards.
Fresh water freezes at 32°, but salty water [brine] freezes at a much lower temp. The salt melts the snow & the salty water runs into the cracks, freezes [probably at 28° or so] & breaks up the streets. It also rusts out rebars in concrete streets, all street light poles & any other steel structure near the road. Bridges are being destroyed in Chicago due to the salt. Cars are destroyed here due to the salt.
Without the salt, the snow won't be melting below 32°, so less street damage.
There cost would be a wash if the salt use were cut back.
Look at any Chicago street a week after a snowfall, it's still white from the salt.

I've lived here 10 years and in that time I've replaced the centerpipe (the center exhaust that runs along the underside) on my car 4 times due to rust caused by salt. I understand that we need to shovel, plow and salt to keep the city from shutting down during a major snowfall. But that said, I learned very quickly that Chicago overdoes it because the people here are lazy, uncivil and spoiled rotten when it comes to snow. After the 1999 blizzard (2 feet of snow in 24 hrs -- main corridors were clear in one day), people were furious that it took the city several days to clear the alleys (which was only done at all because Daley wanted to be reelected the next year). Many Chicagoans can't be bothered to shovel their sidewalks. They mark their cleared spots with lawn furniture because they "earned" them. But man, those roads better be clear -- and fast because it's their right as Chicagoans to be able to scream down Ashland at 50 mph in February.

It's all a complete overreaction to the "lesson" learned by the Blandic Blizzard, the kind of storm that comes along once every few decades.

Chicagoans should go to Michigan or Idaho to see how people really deal with snow.

Okay... Let me get this straight. You don't want the snow and ice removed??

If you don't salt, the water will still get into the pavement cracks, but will freeze hard at 32. Also, when you come along with a plow on a street that hasn't been salted enough, you'll leave a layer of shelf ice on the solid pavement. But where the pavement isn't solid, the fozen ice will just pop right up, and bring along the pavement it's bonded to with it.

You avoid this by putting down enough de-icer to keep the water from freezing, and bonding to the pavement (or pavement remains).

The roads would be much worse off if de-icing were not a major part of snow and ice control. There are de-icers that are less corosive than NaCL, but frankly, repairing the damage done by NaCL is still less expensive than using the less corosive de-icers.

There are places where salt isn't used. They fall into three categories: 1.) They're in a warm enough area that Tuesday morning's ice storm will be melted by Wednesday afternoon, 2.) They're cold enough that there won't be any thaws from December until April or May, or 3.) They have to shut everything down until the ice melts.

I was in Portland, OR for an ice storm in January 2004. The city was essentially shut-down for three days for something that barely would have slowed people down in Chicago. It was only about 2" of snow, that started off as freezing rain.

Starting the third day, people started going out. The put their chains on, and they chewed-up ruts in the frozen tundra that had formed on top of the pavement. And each night, they sent out plow trucks that knocked down the ridges on the ruts, so each morning people got to face some nice, smooth shelf ice again.

After 4 days, things finally started to warm up enough that they could take the chains off their cars, and after day 5, enough of the shelf ice had melted so they didn't have to bring out the Zamboni crews.

If you really want to get rid of salt, then learn how to put chains on your tires. Be prepared to deal with shelf ice and ruts until the weather thaws things out.

In Portland they don't have as many potholes as in Chicago, but the main roads, including the Interstates, all have ruts worn in them from people who don't take their chains off soon enough, and from the studded snow tires that are common.

Damn right I prefer the salt method. It keeps the city moving, and in the long run it's a lot less costly for as much snow and ice as we get each year.

I'd hate to see what the roads would look like without salt. You couldn't keep Chicago moving without the salt.

Blake: It seems like the buses might be bunching less. However, I find it even more annoying when I get on a 143/145/146/151 on Michigan Ave and then it sits at green lights for 3-4 minutes at a time for several subsequent blocks when the bus is mostly full. This doesn't seem very efficient to me, I would rather buses bunch up than get on a bus and then watch 3 other buses I could have taken pass my bus because it is running ahead of schedule. The other annoying part is that the driver doesn't make any kind of announcement and people look at each other like they have no idea what is happening. Has anyone else noticed this?

Gee Rusty, your example of Portland is ludicrous.
Freezing rain or sleet are the times you do need salt.
Chicago salts too damn much!
No other place in the world dumps salt like Chicago, nowhere!
Plus, watch how they incompetently salt & plow here. The plow/salt truck goes by, & salts the street. It's followed in 2 minutes by another truck that plows the salt off to the side & dumps more salt.
Go into any suburb after a snowfall & they have plowed, every damn street before Chicago has finished the main streets!
I have to assume you have stock in Morton or Diamond Crystal Salt.

Every street in any suburb? I'm always amazed at the demarcation line between the northern suburbs and the city. The suburban streets are covered in slush while the city streets are clear from end to edge. This is particularly noticeable from Evanston to Niles.

"any street in an suburb"????

Not Cicero, Berwyn, Forest Park, River Forest, Oak Park, Melrose Park, Maywood, Elmwood Park, Harwood Heights, Norridge and Park Ridge. No way. (I drive through every one of those suburbs five days a week - sometimes daytime, sometimes night.)

But those are mostly (with one or two exceptions) suburbs that share a boundary with Chicago. UC, are you referring to suburbs farther out to support that statement?

mike--when does the city EVER clear the alleys? I've lived here since before 1999 and don't recall them doing that. I wish they would, but considering how long it takes them to get to my little side street sometimes; those are the days I'm really glad I don't drive. For the record, 38th Ward.

Putting the salt down, and then plowing is not a waste or a mistake. That is the correct way of doing it to prevent shelf ice.

Yea, I know that to someone who's never been involved in a real snow and ice operation it seems silly, but that's really the way it should be done, believe it or not.

Of course after plowing, especially if it's still snowing, it should be salted again, but the salt that goes down *before* the plowing is far more important that the salt that goes down after the plowing.

Bunching is down 15% from last year statistically speaking. So yes, it is getting better system-wide.

All the North Shore burbs are plowed fast.
Yes, I know they have a lot of money, but they don't waste it.
Lincolnwood plows fast. In the blizzard of 79, Lincolnwood had every single street plowed to the curb before Chicago could even get two lanes down the center of any main street.

The suburbs plow, they don't salt excessively, their streets are in better condition 20 years after a paving job than Chicago's are after five.

It's hopeless to debate Rusty, he will keep coming up with new excuses to put hundreds of thousands of tons of salt on Chicago streets, despite the proven damage to the streets, the streetlight poles, the traffic light poles & control boxes, the cars & of course the environment, both the plants killed here & the salt going downstream where there shouldn't be salt in the water.

So tell me about how salt damages aluminum poles. I'd be very interesting to hear about this break through in science.

"So tell me about how salt damages aluminum poles. I'd be very interesting to hear about this break through in science.
Posted by: Rusty"

A perfect example of why you can't debate Rusty!
At least 90% of Chicago's poles are steel.

Well, thanks for confirming your lack of credibility.

Just a note: I love the community we have built here. All I did was put up a crazy commuting story about what a bus driver said and that evolved into a heated discussion of benefits and pitfalls of using road salt, with 24 comments so far.

I love it. Thanks for reading and interacting with the CTA Tattler.

Umm, Dee? They plow my alleys, but I live near a certain politician.

So now Rusty is denying the obvious, that 90% of Chicago's street light poles are plain steel, not stainless steel let alone aluminum, which doesn't rust, it corrodes away. And if it's anodized aluminum, all it takes is a scratch & the corroding starts there.

Again, you can't debate Rusty, he know all, he sees all.

I know, he's the Wizard of Oz!
I wonder who's behind his curtain?
Daley, perhaps?

clout is alive & well in Chicago!

I'm guessing you must live near one of the fine, fine, fine public servants at the top of the state, county, or city food chain, Cheryl.
I'd've killed for it this past winter. Or (dare I say it?) salt at least. Considering how many times I nearly broke my neck walking--alley or sidewalk.