CTA Tattler

In some ways, bustitution from Rosemont to OHare may be the least disruptive. Presumably, a shuttle can drop you off at the correct terminal, so, while you have to transfer, and potentially wait a little, you'll get dropped a little closer to your destination.

Can anyone confirm that the shuttles will stop at all terminals?

I want to know when the slow zone from Granville to just north of Loyola is going to get fixed.
Trains are limited to maybe 10MPH there!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-red-linejun23,0,3196400.story

Can anyone explain this? Because of the following work on the ELEVATED, that means that the underground red line will be rerouted? Where? I take the red line to get home and I'm concerned. This is unclear to me.

Ah, I see. This must be happening at night?

And let's not forget that a bunch of buses are joining the tracker today! Keep in mind: If your cell phone has a browser, you can use the text-only version of the site to bookmark individual stops, so if you begin either of your commutes on any of the tracked routes, you can quickly and easily check the status.

"Can anyone explain this? Because of the following work on the ELEVATED, that means that the underground red line will be rerouted? Where?"

Tina -
This work has been ongoing on weekends and evenings since March. There have been articles here, news stories on every single legitimate (and some not-so-legitimate) news outlet in Chicago, and signs in all affected stations. What's the confusion?

Well, since you decided to be rude, I guess there IS no confusion since it's clear you're a jerk.

The phrasing was written poorly and I thought my trip home would be affected. If you don't want to be helpful, then say nothing at all. Sad how rude people are when no offense has been made to them. I actually feel sorry for you. I hope you learn to be nicer to others who've done nothing to you! Must be hard to go through life that way.

[I want to know when the slow zone from Granville to just north of Loyola is going to get fixed.]

This is annoying. I imagine it's a low priority, though, given the amount of slow-zone work that still needs to be done in higher-traffic areas. For example, the Sheridan-Addison slow zone.

Actually I've been meaning to say something, although my fear of being ridiculed for whatever opinion I have, made me think twice.

It looks like the slow zone from Grand to Lake on the SB Red line is no more.

Only 999 more cuts to stop before I'm no longer a victim of the "death of a thousand cuts".

KevinB

I fail to see why the Granville/Loyola stretch would be low priority.
All Red Line trains must pass through it & are delayed!
Plus in my observation of it, it doesn't look anywhere near as bad as some other sections of rotting ties that I've seen.
And I might be mistaken, but the ties that are rotten seem to be getting that way due to the A/C condensate drip from the trains in the summer. You can see where the drip line is.

The Sheridan-Addison slow zone is a mess partly because of the original construction of the L snaking it through alleys.
These kinks in the tracks should be eliminated, but it appears that the idiots that run the CTA have no plans to do so, even if there was the money to do it.
Plus, it should be done with the eliminating of the Sheridan Rd. S turn which will have to go when the station is rebuilt for handicap access. There's no room for a longer platform there & it doesn't appear that the CTA has even notified any property owners that there land is going to be taken by eminent domain for the project.

Again, more lack of planning on the CTA's part.
What else is new?

Well, to be fair, the CTA may never un-kink the red line at Sheridan EVER, to say nothing of doing so in our lifetimes. And if that is the case, it wouldn't make much sense to start notifying people of pending eminent domain now, lest people abandon those nearby buildings and leave them to rot, attract vermin and vagabonds, and drag down the surrounding property values.

And anyway, it may not be necessary to straighten that curve. The red line has to stop at Sheridan, anyway, so the fact that there's a curve there doesn't really slow the train down THAT much, and certainly no more than a matter of seconds, considering the train is slowing to a stop to pick up passengers. Neither Sheridan nor the Diversey kink nor any of these little bumps in the system slow the trains down considerably, not when compared to, say, a traffic light/bus stop combo on the roads below or an on-ramp on one of the busier highways.

Like it or not, I think all of the kinks on the L are here to stay. I don't think that any amount of impatience to get to one's destination (even if everyone shares that impatience) is worth the $20 or $30+ million in taxpayer dollars plus two or three years of 3-tracking that would be required to fix it. The seconds saved simply wouldn't be worth it, and wouldn't add up to that much faster of a commute.

The s-curve at Sheridan will never be eliminated nor would it be cost effective (read financially responsible) to do so for the little gain it would yield.

The only series of turns that might be eliminated would be where the section of track that turns from parallel with Clybourn, crossing over Halsted, turning over North Ave, and back parallel with it eastward. Though that is dependent on if the Circle Line gets approved and funded. The idea is that that section of line will go underground and meet up with a new super station, straiting out the ROW would be a side benefit.

The CTA did remove the Harrison Curve from the Elevated tracks just south of the loop.

They do get it right form time to time!

Well, first off, they can't eliminate the curves. They can only change the angles. But to do that, they have to tear down some buildings.

So... What's it worth to you?

When you line the pros up against the cons, there might be more pros than cons, but the cost of the job is too high for what value it brings.

Perhaps if your perspective ignores the needs of the immediate neighborhood it factors out differently. But there shouldn't be any dispute that softening those curves has little value to the neighborhood.

Again it comes down to what burdens you want to foist on a neighborhood to benefit people who aren't doing a thing for the neighborhood. Should that neighborhood be expected to bear the additional costs that don't show up on the project's spreadsheet, and get nothing in return?

Figure out how you can restructure the project so it has benefits to those bearing the most costs, and there might be a chance. What does the neighborhood need that can be provided as part of the project? What's in it for them?

Perhaps someday the political tide will turn, and politicians will be willing to bulldoze neighborhoods in the name of helping other neighborhoods like they did in the '60s, but that's not the time we live in now. (Mostly because the scars of that era haven't yet been forgotten.)

Can anyone confirm that the shuttles will stop at all terminals?

From the link above-"will close"-CTA site:
"Customers at the Rosemont station will exit trains to transfer to CTA buses at the bus terminal en route to O’Hare station. At O’Hare station customers will board and alight buses at the O’Hare Bus Shuttle Center located in the airport’s lower level near the flight Arrivals area (O’Hare terminals 1, 2 and 3). The bus shuttle trip between the Rosemont and O’Hare station takes approximately 10 minutes. CTA personnel will be on hand at both locations to direct customers to awaiting buses."

Tina, the Tribune's editors were simply taking the day off. The sentence in question should be understood as "Northbound trains will be rerouted to the following elevated stations Monday through Thursday from 9 p.m. to 5 a.m. because of repair work:"

As for removing kinks... $25M or $30M would probably be better put toward the required local funding for one of the CTA's expansion projects, such as extending the red line to 130th. In the long run, per dollar, I would think extending the train to new communities would end up saving more person-hours of transit time than would, say, straightening out the Diversey kink.

Of course this is a little academic since the CTA barely has any capital money as it is...

Then there was always that $245 million they spent on Block 37 and destroyed the Washington street red line station in the process, it's not coming back anytime soon, if ever....and that is just the tip of the iceberg folks.

This all goes back to my assertion that we can't blame the legislature for failing to provide additional funding...for once they had it right that the CTA couldn't be trusted with the money it had....why throw good money after bad?

The CTA is a victim of its own incompetence and waste and unfortunately the riders and taxpayers are the one to pay. Frank ought to be required to give back his salary for all the years he was in charge and Carole ought to resign now and do the same. Frank is an idiot and couldn't be trusted. Carole is not stupid and she just blindly looked the other way for all those years. Shame on her.

Ron's not much better with his payroll padding and his utter failure to rein in the block 37 fiasco a year ago. Add that insult to injury with asking for another $45 million to continue to build a nice finished hole in the ground to make it "look nice".

Sometimes it sucks being right. What kind of good things could the CTA have done with that $245 mil? To top it off we could have kept the Washington street station and the very convenient red/blue pedestrian transfer point.

KevinB

Of all the expansion projects that are on the dream list, I'd have to agree that Red Line to 130th has got to be the best use of that kind of capital funding.

It's not quite on par with how extending the Milwaukee El to O'Hare was 30 years ago, but I think it would be better than extending the Orange to Ford City, the Yellow to Old Orchard, or building the circle line. And all of those (with the possible exception of the circle line) would be a better use of funds than removing kinks that require removing functioning buildings from the fabric of an existing neighborhood, not to mention the tax rolls.

These are the kinds of things that should be done when the regional (and national) economy is healthy. Just think of all the projects we could have done instead of that one big Federal project that never should have been started - the war.

Let's see. On one hand, we could have funded civic projects that would have encouraged economic growth. On the other hand, we had the chance to get involved in the internal politics of a country that's been divided by ethnic and religious wars for centruries. How did we blow such an easy choice?

Indeed, it is amazing to think what could have been done with a trillion dollars or so. With $1 trillion and seven years, we could have revolutionized transportation in this country, repairing and expanding public transit and introducing high speed intercity rail. In short, a lot of people could have a lot more alternatives to $5/gallon gas right now...

[I fail to see why the Granville/Loyola stretch would be low priority.
All Red Line trains must pass through it & are delayed!]

Trains typically have many more riders when heading through the Sheridan-Addison slow zone than when heading through the Granville-Loyola stretch. Surely you've noticed this.

[There's no room for a longer platform there & it doesn't appear that the CTA has even notified any property owners that there land is going to be taken by eminent domain for the project.]

And a good thing, too, because WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? What project?

A serious question: do you have any sense of priority? You seem to be awfully quick to start with eminent domain for even the most minor of issues. Do you have any idea what a big deal seizing the needed property would be, and the time and expense required to do that?

And to what end? Fixing one of your arbitrary pet peeves? When there are about a million-and-five other things that need to be done?

Eminent domain at Sheridan or for that matter any other station that hasn't been brought up to ADA standards is NOT a minor issue!
You don't seem to get what's at issue here.
That if the CTA doesn't plan out the enlarged footprint of rebuilt stations, NOW, they will be forced to pay increased costs in the future when they due have to take those properties, which in many cases are in gentrifying areas.
By identifying those properties now, they can prevent buildings from being built that will just have to be torn down.
And since you seem to have a bug up your ass about my beliefs on eminent domain, let me remind you that except for the Hayes-Healy building at Fullerton, all the properties at Fullerton that I said should have been taken by eminent domain were either vacant land or already scheduled for demolition by DePaul.
The extra cost of 10 feet of DePaul's tennis court, which DePaul was eliminating anyway, would have been minor compared to the cost of what has happened, the relocation of both tracks 2 & 3 at Fullerton.
All of the property at Howard was already owned by the CTA, it was total incompetence that allowed the construction of the stores & garage up to the current right of way to occur.
Plus I only wanted a 10 foot strip taken at either location.

This is about proper planning for the future, even if that future is 10 or 20 years away.
You don't seem to care about the future, let alone understand it!

Why couldn't they simply relocate that station to Irving Park if the current site is unsuitable? They'd have lots more room there.

What's the rush? The CTA doesn't have to make any of its stations ADA compliant until they have the money to completely remodel/refurbish/rebuild. The ADA was written so as to NOT be retroactive - only new construction and complete renovations must be handicapped or wheelchair accessible. That way, any public or private entity that owns a structure buit prior to July of 1992 does not have to bankrupt itself adding an elevator to an old building or train station.

So, long story short, yes, if the CTA decides to completely renovate a train station (like Sheridan) they do have to add elevators. but if this doesn't happen for another 50 years, then who knows? In that time, the owners of the private buildings abutting the station may have torn down and built something new that isn't in the way of the station's expansion to accommodate the elevators.

But it's pointless to argue the validity of wild speculations.

It is illegal to warn someone that their private property is going to be seized through eminent domain if you don't have real plans in the works to build or rebuild a public accommodation. The CTA has no concrete plans to renovate the Sheridan station right now or in the next several years. If the CTA told all of the property owners around the Sheridan station today to expect that their property is going to be seized, those property owners could sue the CTA for attempting to intimidate them to sell and/or vacate their property.

Keil, just how do you know what the CTA's plans for the future of the Sheridan station are?
And the ADA law keeps getting revised, the Bush Administration is about to go to Congress to make it even more inclusive.
And it is retroactive, otherwise stations like Granville, Loyola, Jackson/State, Washington/State, Chicago/State & soon, Grand/State wouldn't have been rebuilt.

You identify the footprint & record that to the PIN[s] in the County Recorder's office so future buyers of the properties know what's going to happen.

"how do you know what the CTA's plans for the future of the Sheridan station are?"

You are right, I don't know (but then again, neither do you UC-c, do you?). That's fair. However, the CTA is in the habit of announcing renovation and construction projects years before the first shovel-full of dirt is turned over, so I think that it is pretty safe to say that no imminent eminent domain plans exist for the Sheridan station.

"And it is retroactive, otherwise stations like Granville, Loyola, Jackson/State, Washington/State, Chicago/State & soon, Grand/State wouldn't have been rebuilt"

It is most certainly NOT retroactive. Please Google the text of the ADA and read Title III. The stations you list weren't rebuilt because they weren't ADA compliant. They were rebuilt because they were old and needed to be rebuilt and there was money on hand to do so. They are now ADA compliant because you cannot rebuild a train station anymore without adding an elevator and making it ADA compliant.

And wasn't Granville rebuilt BEFORE ADA came into force? I believe that both it and Loyola were done long before that...

And Western on the Brown Line, rehabbed sometime in the 80s.

ADA does not require station renovations. It does require any already-underway station renovations that are something like "a substantial rebuild" to make provisions for ADA. If the CTA never renovates a station, they never (NEVER) need to make it ADA-compliant.

Look at the NYC subway. Hardly anything is ADA-compliant.

For the cost of all the ADA renovations and elevators we could have provided each person that can't climb a set of stairs with access to a car and driver.

"For the cost of all the ADA renovations and elevators we could have provided each person that can't climb a set of stairs with access to a car and driver."

That's a gross exaggeration and in VERY poor taste. All people should be able to access public transportation, not just those of us who are physically capable of ascending and descending a flight of stairs.

"For the cost of all the ADA renovations and elevators we could have provided each person that can't climb a set of stairs with access to a car and driver."

Someone either is:
1. Devoid of any empathy,
2. Really, really bad with numbers (ie, the cost of the paratransit programs),
3. A troll

Or perhaps a combination of the above.

Frankly, as I've reached middle age, I've begun to realize that long before I'm ready to give up on life, I'm very likely to have limited mobility. And although I can still climb stairs, I understand how much of an impediment even a simple curb can be to some very vital people.

One thing that's been left out is that the Sheridan station is now 102 years old & is well past its lifespan.
It is definitely going to be replaced in the coming years.
Wilson is also 102 years old.
All the other stations on the North Side Red Line are 98 years old [except for Granville, Loyola & Howard] & they too will need replacement.
But Sheridan is a special case as it's on the S turn & there's no room on the S turn for an 8 car long platform with elevators.

Buy the land now before it's built on & costs even more to buy!
Take a good look at all the empty land around Byron's on Irving Park, the parking lot. If you see it get built on, then you know that nothing has changed at the CTA, the incompetence is still running rampant!

With all those stations so old, what makes you think Sheridan is going to be a priority that'll reach the top of the list within the next 20 years? Taking land off the tax rolls for 20 -- or even 10 years -- is a bad move. I'd call them incompetent if they started condemming before the project is even starting. Especially if it's a project that may never start!

Given what others have already pointed out about the station's age and lack of accessibility, as well as the possibility that the CTA may want to upgrade to 10 car trains at some point in the next decade or so, the likelihood of a station rebuild/renovation in the next decade or so seems more than remote. (Also, whatever the ADA requires, accessibility is a good thing. Stations should be accessible. Moreover, the population's getting older; more people will need accessibility in the coming years.)

On the other hand, given the state of capital funding, it seems unlikely that any rebuild of Sheridan is likely to occur for at least several years.

The fact that there are no plans on the drawing board yet doesn't meant the CTA should do nothing though, while property values increase. (Gas is getting expensive and properties close to transit are likely to go up more than average in the coming years, I suspect.)

The CTA could try to purchase an option to purchase the properties adjacent to Sheridan at some point down the line... 10 years? It could be a good deal for CTA if it avoids a legal fight over eminent domain down the road, and it might be attractive to property owners who would get some money up-front and who know they could get a worse deal through eminent domain someday. And it's far enough out in time that one of the main problems with eminent domain (sudden need to relocate) would be mitigated somewhat.

But since real estate stuff is often done in secret for market reasons, I wonder if the CTA hasn't already quietly tried this?

Just to state the obvious, when the city declares (either by the purchase of property, by eminant domain, or by a simple statement) that it intends to tear down buildings in a number of years it will, of course, hugely discourage any businesses from locating there. And those that are located there would be more likely to move or close rather than stay in a place where they are inevitably going to have to leave. And this uncertainty also decreases the likelihood of businesses coming or staying nearby. So those people who do not like empty storefronts and declining neighborhoods should be against any of the suggestions made here.

[the possibility that the CTA may want to upgrade to 10 car trains at some point in the next decade or so]

Not saying this is a bad idea, exactly, but it's one I don't quite understand. It seems to me that capacity can be more efficiently raised by adding trains, instead of making the current trains longer.

Of course, maybe one day we'll have to do both, but it seems like there's a lot of room to grow while still keeping 8-car trains.

"And the ADA law keeps getting revised, the Bush Administration is about to go to Congress to make it even more inclusive.
And it is retroactive, otherwise stations like Granville, Loyola, Jackson/State, Washington/State, Chicago/State & soon, Grand/State wouldn't have been rebuilt." (Un-in-co)
~~~~~
No, it isn't retroactive. And your example does noting to show that it is.

What your example does show, and surprisingly(?) you're unable to comprehend, is that whenever there is significant rebuilding or renovation the structure must include accessible access and amenities. That doesn't make ADA retroactive.

(So sad when people blow smoke about stuff they can't understand.)

MK, just curious: in light of the plans for the circle line, why haven't businesses in the general vicinity of North & Clybourn and the zig-zaggy elevated tracks nearby not fled the area? The CTA has made more than a "simple statement" of its interest in sinking those elevated tracks underground to join them to a superstation there. Hard to see how this could be done without the CTA owning some of the land in the area. Whether it owns it already or would need to acquire it, the result would seem to be the same under your view of "the obvious."

This is about proper planning for the future, even if that future is 10 or 20 years away.
You don't seem to care about the future, let alone understand it!

Posted by: Unindicted Co-conspirator | June 24, 2008 at 08:32 AM
~~~~~

That's very forward-looking thinking. Suggesting that they take advantage and plan now for an opportunity that might not be available if they wait 10-20 more years. That sort of thinking is to be commended, though your execution described in some of your posts on this thread seems flawed.

Following your train of logic, it would be reasonable to conclude that you also support the forward thinking plan to take advantage of the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to build a connection between the two most heavily-used rail lines, correct?

The fact that there are no plans on the drawing board yet doesn't meant the CTA should do nothing though, while property values increase. (Gas is getting expensive and properties close to transit are likely to go up more than average in the coming years, I suspect.)

Just like they did in Detroit.

"The fact that there are no plans on the drawing board yet doesn't meant the CTA should do nothing though, while property values increase."

Valid point. However, the CTA doesn't have money to buy buildings and land. Land and real estate are capital expenses, so if the CTA wants to buy a piece of land, they have to ask the government for the money (and permission) to buy THAT specific piece of land.

I think that forward thinking is great, and if the CTA can, they should, but here is the reality:

*Fantasy Budget Hearing*
CTA says: We need $10 million in capital funds to buy the plot of land on the corner of Sheridan/Irving Park and the building on that land so we can demolish the builing and renovate the Sheridan station 20 years from now.
Legislature says: No. Absolutely not. If you don't need the land for another 20 years, you will have to come back in 20 years and ask for the money then.

A judge in an eminent domain case would have a similar response.

Yes, property values are going to go up, but with very few exceptions, that's true for all land and real estate all of the time.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see all L stations renovated and accessible and nice-looking, and we all know that it has to happen at some point, 'cause those stations can't just deteriorate indefinitely. But, the reality is that the CTA can't buy now and renovate later becuase the money to buy now doesn't exist. The CTA will get the money that they need to buy that real estate if and when they submit a capital request to the government that includes purchasing the land and buildings, demolishing the buildings, and renovating the station.

?

Unindicted co-conspiraor said:
"Plus in my observation of it, it doesn't look anywhere near as bad as some other sections of rotting ties that I've seen.
And I might be mistaken, but the ties that are rotten seem to be getting that way due to the A/C condensate drip from the trains in the summer. You can see where the drip line is."

So he's not just a transit planner (see his other posts on this thread), he's also an engineer?

But he changes points of view like socks:
- good to plan ahead and take property that might not ever be used for decades - or ever (Sheridan)
- bad to plan ahead and take advantage of connection opportunity that won't be available again for decades - if not generations (Block 37 tunnel connection)

I can't keep up.

I think some of you have a very interesting take on how/when eminent domain can be applied, what a "taking" is, and whether the cta can take property through eminent domain for potential future use

Love this icon on the CTA's home page -
http://www.yourcta.com/news/motion/szepBluelinecut2.gif

What's this guy doing? Is he shooting the Blue Line or drilling a hole in it?

Either way it's pretty low end. It looks like the clip art in the Powerpoints they produce.

"What's this guy doing?"

As each Blue line train pulls into Rosemont, he personally comes through each car encouraging riders to disembark due to construction and ride the shuttle bus, by threatening each customer with a jack hammer.

"...by threatening each customer with a jack hammer."

I LOVE your explanation! It makes more sense than anything I could come up with. ;-)

However, I guess I'm fixated on the bad clip art idea. I mean, when do you see someone on their knee using a jackhammer or other major construction tool?

Wait - let's put my pickyness and your creativity together. Maybe clipart man personally comes through each car encouraging riders to disembark due to construction and ride the shuttle bus, by threatening each customer with an electric screw driver?

I thought the guy was kneeling down praying that the work would get done in time.

No, he's praying that we get the Olympics

or praying that we don't