CTA Tattler

What is meant by his quote "This is our ticket to get out of a cost-prohibitive system"?

Was the original plan of 20 years not put into a contract maybe?

Sooner or later it will finally get through to the politicians, who never ride the CTA, or any other public transit system except as a publicity stunt, that it is a lot cheaper to make the whole thing "free" & just increase taxes slightly to pay for it.
Fare collection is an enormous expense.
But who wants their credit card connected to the CTA fare collection system? I certainly wouldn't trust that for having security!

No matter how you look at it, everyone benefits from those that use mass transit.
Drivers have to learn that the more people that take the bus & L, the fewer cars on the road, thus traffic moves faster & better.

It may be soon to know details like this, but from the sound of "Moving away from producing our own fare media" makes me think that in order to use the new equivalent of the Chicago Card, you'll have to have a credit card with the company that wins the bids. This would be an instant deal breaker for me for some (most) credit card companies.
A) I don't want to carry an RFID chipped credit card at all.
B) I don't want to have another open line of credit.
C) I don't want to become a customer of yet another bank.

Hopefully they'll keep these things in mind, rather than just telling us "Go get your new Bank of America CTA card."

Cubic is the 800lb gorilla. They hold a monopoly on fare collection hardware/software. This should be fun. It'll require the replacement of ALL turnstile/fare collection equipment throughout the enterprise.

The smart cards are pretty well established, almost de facto, in Europe. The security problems are nonexistent -- this is more secure than having to handle your card or give it to someone. (The only time I had my identity stolen, it was a waiter at a restaurant to whom I'd handed my card to process. All the info is there on the card for the taking, including the security code on the back.) I don't mind the Chicago Card Plus, but I'd much rather work with the more secure smart credit card.

(Personal to KevinB: Any chance you were on a 147 bus today? When I got on at Hollywood, I noticed someone toward the back who looked a lot like the photo Kevin ran of you a while back.)

Bob:

Nope, must be my good twin :) . I was on the 8:16 purple to belmont and then a red line from there.

I guess my first question to Ron about Cubic would be:

Have they been approached about reducing costs, etc? These days companies are more willing to deal since most times less business (or profit)is better than no business or profit...plus the PR from losing a high profile customer is always a bummer.

If they have been approached, did the CTA do their due dilgence and do a cost/benefit study to see if ripping out the old and putting in new is really in the best interest and makes economic sense considering the budget situation they are in.

KevinB

I am cautiously optimistic about this program. I can see some benefits to it, although I agree with some of Morydd's issues.

I'm not so much worried about the security, as Bob S. said, the issue of security seems fairly locked up. I would rather not have to take out another line of credit just to take the train, but if the program were more open, and I could just have a new card for an existing account, that would be fine.

Also, I like the idea of this type of card being more universal. It would be convenient to be able to use the same card for any transit system in the country (or the world), especially for people who travel a lot, whether for leisure or business.

But, I want to know more. How it would work, what's in it for me, as a rider?

>>Some type of cash fare-collection apparatus will remain for the small segment of riders who continue to pay with cash, officials said.

"Small segment?" What about customers who can't get credit, especially in the current environment? What about those who don't want to obtain another credit card? When NYCT ran a credit charge fare payment pilot program earlier this year, customers had to use a Mastercard.

Regarding security, I'm not worried about the data transfer, but there are safety concerns around having a credit card in hand. I've never had an issue with CTA having my credit card on file for my CCP, but I don't like the idea of whipping out my credit card every time I get on a bus or train. If users of this system are required to obtain a specific credit card, a tag should be available that users could put on a key chain like the Shell Speedpass. That way the RFID chip could be accessible but the customer wouldn't have to use the actual card.

I hope the powers-that-be at CTA step outside their echo chamber for a moment to realize the full ramifications of this decision and try to see it from the customers' perspective. The cost savings are substantial, but the opportunity to piss people off is also substantial if this isn't introduced thoughtfully.

It would be nice if you could use the RFID part of your card. Most debit cards issued seem to have those already. What I'd really like to see is RFID U-Passes integrated into College Student ID cards! No more annoying U-Pass pickup, and it would be easier to use!

I'm with Morydd on this. I don't want to open any new credit card, and I don't want to have to deal with a new bank. I use the Chicago Card because it links to my current bank account, and auto-refills itself so I don't have to think about it. If I had to start with some new bank or some new credit account, it would become a new pain in the ass bill I'd have to pay more attention to.

I'd rather they just put the chip in my arm than have to have another credit card.

I'm not sure why people think new lines of credit are needed. Credit card companies are adding RFID chips to their cards as they perceive the usefulness. As RFID readers are acquired by restaurants, gas stations, supermarkets, and other vendors in a region, the credit card companies add the chips to the cards sent to their customers in that region. If you have a credit card, it expires, and at some point your replacement card will include an RFID chip.

Really, the current RFID fare collection system should be able to handle RFID credit cards with a software update; all that's required is to transition from the proprietary RFID transaction Cubic defined for Chicago Cards and CCPs to the industry standard credit card transaction. Every station that has a machine allowing riders to add value to their Chicago Card and CCP using a credit card should be able to handle other transactions too. But if Ron and Ron's vendors say an entirely new collection system is needed, hey, it must be needed.

I would rather them work with Metra & PACE to have one smart card for the whole system. That way the costs can be reduced and maybe they can save some money

>I'm not sure why people think new lines of credit are needed.

I'm basing my assumption on the need for a specific card from this line in the Tribune article about the new system:

"Visa, MasterCard and all other credit card and banking companies will be invited to bid for contracts, CTA officials said."

If customers don't currently hold a card from the winning bidder, I would they would need to get a card from that entity in order to use the system.

I thought I read somewhere (and I can't find it now...) that the vendor who wins this bid will pay to replace all the equipment. Without that, I think this whole idea is a non-starter. My brand new credit card I just received in the mail last week has an RFID chip (they call it something else, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is) and name all the places you can use this feature in the Chicagoland area. It was definitely more extensive that I thought it would be. Like it or not, credit cards will all have these just like Europe. For the paranoid, be sure to put on your tin foil hats.

Chase, I believe they announced a plan to integrate student ID cards with the U-pass already. I'm not sure when it starts though.

Malcolm, that is a great idea but everyone thinks that however nobody has come up with a good way to replace the Metra payment system yet. Pace would be easier and I think they have made steps in integrating their payments with them.

Tecki,

One of the Asian systems that uses this has incentive programs attached to it where stores can give you a transit credit when you shop with them. You could probably also earn points toward things if you are using a credit card, which would be useful. I think there is a lot of potential with the RFID technology.

Not tinfoil hats, but tinfoil wrappers for the cards!

Nope, tinfoil wallets and purses!

KevinB

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, Martha. I know I'm being foolish, but I'm going to hope that means something akin to the cellphone repeaters in the tunnels, where all providers can bid on contracts to make them available to their subscribers, and not something proprietary.

Yeah, not only do I not want to apply for an unneeded new credit card--which would impact my credit rating--but Martha makes an excellent point about having to whip out a credit card all the time. About as bad as the ATM-lobby after-hours "security" systems which require you to get out your wallet on the public sidewalk to take out your card to swipe it. For your security, my @$$! I keep those things several layers down in my bag for a reason.

I might be willing to open up a debit card account for the purpose, that I could transfer money into when I decide to, and use it for other incidental purchases like coffee. It would not have much money on it and I would keep it where I keep my Chicago Card now. I would hope to be able to just wave it rather than go through a bunch of swiping and button-punching rignarole, which has put me off debit cards so far. Earning points or cash back sounds good.

I don't see this replacing the current fare system, thats an unreasonable expectation. They invested in creating a smart-card system that made boarding faster, easier than shuffling fare cards, and more reloading options. Then they invested in being able to use credit cards at higher volume stations to be able to issue or reload cards. If they can reduce the number of machines that are needed by adding this option, great, but thats about all I can see them doing. I will not be using my debit smart-card if it becomes available, because I don't want my account being nickel and dimed every time I use public transit. But for those who don't mind and find it more convenient, it will place the current machines in less demand allowing for some of them to be removed. I also agree in re-negotiating servicing costs, but without any options built in, the current contract doesn't appear to be up until 2017 and thats still well down the road!

The current system isn't going anywhere. The notion is absurd that the CTA will create a new card to use which is nothing more than a credit card but then not accept any other type of credit cards. Either they will just directly accept credit cards for boarding or they won't. Simple as that. There is no way that they are going to accept only a special Mastercard or Visa that they create or that they also will accept any credit card that anyone wishes to use but still expect that there will be a market for their specific card. That's just not the way it will work. And they have to make the service attractive for tourists and other visitors to the city. And they cannot do that if the only way to pay is with a long term type card.

At this time that everyone is talking about the supposed cost savings that this plan would create there is still the ticking bomb that will dramatically increase these processing costs right now. And that, of course, is the huge drop of the use of the Chicago Card that will now occur since it (the regular Chicago Card, not the plus) is no more attractive than the transit card as of the January 1st price changes. That is just so obviously illogical and for no apparent reason. The media and just about everyone else has not even bothered to pick up on this outragous irresponsible decision. Jon Hilkevitch of the Tribune writes an entire article (that, as always, is horribly written) about something that would supposidely save processing costs a few years in the future and yet he doesn't even pick up on the fact that the CTA is about the let these costs immedietely begin to rise dramatically. Nobody seems to be capable of making connections. Articles are printed and discussed about something with a specific goal while at the same time another action is taken by the same agency that will, withoug a doubt, cause the exact opposite effect. And nobody seems to notice these inconsitancies. It would really be comical if it weren't so sad in its display of the lack of common sense among the media and CTA leadership.

This is great news CTA's getting out of the fare media business. While the Chicago Card was a good step forward, it was a proprietary, boondoggle that was basically useless except for on CTA. MK: It seems very appropriate to me that CTA is finally pricing it the same as the other cards, because it was nothing but a give-away to those who could afford the luxury of a credit card. Almost offensive that Chicago Card users were getting such a discount, while most folks in poorer neighborhoods were paying full fares.

What we have to start seeing, is that the growth market in these new cards, is not going to be in the traditional credit variety that we all know of, but the prepaid versions that are slowly creeping-up everywhere. Check out this link: http://www.credit.com/products/credit_cards/debit.jsp . This is a very, very smart move on CTA's part.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

JMan,

You have no idea what you are talking about. People pay the Chicago Card in the exact same manner as the transit card. They go to one of the regular fare machines and pay cash. Or, like the transit card, they use one of the newer credit card machines. As I have said around 500 times on this blog, YOU DON'T NEED A CREDIT CARD TO USE A CHICAGO CARD. Yet there is obviously some sort of urban myth that has been passed from somewhere since this false statement repeatedly keeps getting made. Where did you hear that a credit card was needed? Maybe we can get to the bottom of where this myth is coming from.

No, but MK, the regular Chicago Card requires you to go to a rail station (or one of the very few other locations) to load value on the Card--and it doesn't give you the 30-Day Pass option, it's a mess for supposedly such a "smart" technology. Most customers are probably shifting to passes for the SAME reason those with a credit card shift to Chicago Card Plus--you pay once and can ride without having to count every ride--you basically ride as much as you want. What's been crazy, is this notion that the CC Plus riders are SO special they deserve all these discounts. It's opposite: these are the folks who are more price inelastic and more capable to pay--yet they've been getting large discounts. The CC Plus is a more premium product--you should pay more, not less.

I do know what I'm talking about.

"No, but MK, the regular Chicago Card requires you to go to a rail station (or one of the very few other locations) to load value on the Card."

So what? First of all, if they are riding trains they need to go to the rail station. That is just the way it is. So why would there be a problem with them loading their fares at that time? If they are only riding buses then this isn't an issue. You do realize that the transit card and the Chicago Card bus fare have always been identical, right? People pay the regular bus fare whether they use a transit card or a Chicago Card. So no, you don't have any idea what you are talking about. And it is an outright falsehood to state, as you did, that "most folks in poorer neighborhoods were paying full fares". If you don't even know how the fare system works you should not be making class warfare arguments about it. Class warfare can be a very horrifying and dangerous behavior. Nobody should ever engage in it unless they damn know what they are talking about.

"It's opposite: these are the folks who are more price inelastic and more capable to pay--yet they've been getting large discounts. The CC Plus is a more premium product--you should pay more, not less."

First of all, you need to learn what inelastic means. Here you go: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inelastic

You are not using the term correctly. Oddly, you are not the first person who made that exact same statement, which does not even convey the slightest understanding of the word you are using. Ron Huberman said the same thing. Are you Ron Huberman? If so, I would suggest you read comments on the threads posted immedietely after you announced the new fare structure. Many people pointed out the bizareness of your use of the word "inelastic". Elasticity has to do with the effect of price change on demand. It has nothing to do with how much a price change would effect someone. If you are not Ron Huberman, I must ask why you made an identical statement to something he said. Are you an advisor who encouraged him to make that populist comment? Or did you just read this quote and take it at face value even though you don't understand the CTA's fare structure?

The current fare structure, which Huberman is going to throw away in January, was clearly set up in a very thoughtful manner by the previous management. It encourages people to use the fare cards that are the cheapest to process. And these cards also speed up bus boarding which means faster commutes and lower gas costs. Also, contrary to your statement, it creates a more efficiant pricing system that creates lower prices for those who are more price elastic (unlike you, I am using the word correctly), who are most likely to abandon the system as a result of higher prices. And those people who are most inelastic pay higher prices. They are the people who feel no need to spend a few minutes getting a Chicago Card because they don't care very much about the money they save. Everybody wins. As I said before, it is similar to the discount cards they provide to people at places such as Jewel, Borders, and CVS. But unfortuenely, Huberman is going to dump all of this. And for no apparent reason that I can think of.