CTA Tattler

Personally, I am glad that the tagger was caught. In reality, though, he is probably already back on the streets making the city an uglier place to be.

Interesting. They edit out the part where the cops get on the scene. And the the last part of the video - where they are leaving the platform? That part seems to be shot surreptitiously from waist/chest level. Was that a cop I hear behind them behind them escorting them out of the station?

Might have gone a little far, but I agree with the comment from "3RDRAIL1988" explaining the use of force.

Good for them!

I think its a shame there are not enough of these Guardian Angel groups working thvoughout the city. Open your eyes Chicagoans and you'll see more than you knew was going on outside your little IPod world.

These guys are one (short) step away from the "if only I'd been packing, VT/Mumbai would never have happened" gun nuts. Lock 'em up.

And while they're locked up, someone loan them a book on modern counterinsurgency theory and remind them this isn't 1975 New York City.

I applaud their vigilante justice if they are truly making the world safer, but it seemed a little excessive for a tagger. I'd like them to tackle issues more important issues like assaults, robberies, etc on CTA trains. While taggers aren't good, they are certainly not going to physically harm anyone.

Also, their outfits are funny. :)

A tagger? Really? This is what they thought it takes to punish a tagger?

Do they have any time of them apprehending someone who has just threated the life of someone else with a gun or a knife? Someone picking someone else's pocket? "Detaining" someone who threatened bodily harm and not just damaged some stupid old property that can easily be replaced or cleaned?

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that these guys are out there and feel that they want to make a difference, but maybe a change of priority is in order. If they think they're keeping me "safe" by pouncing on some guy with a marker or a spray can, they're wrong.

Sorry, that should read "Do they have any tape of them..."

I can't stand those guys. What actual, physical harm is a tagger doing anyway? Maybe we should sell licenses to taggers to enhance the trains.

Seems like someone took their Batman fantasies a little too far. This kind of vigilantism is sociopathic behavior disguised as altruism.

"Guardians" or not, what I see is a gang attacking an apparently unarmed man for what is by any reasonable standard a minor infraction.

Well, clearly the angels are following the arresting officer, so I don't see any evidence they were being 'escorted out.' The cops are holding the presumed taggers, so clearly they've accepted the angels version of whatever happens. I probably wouldn't hold a camera at my face while walking down stairs either, so I think the fact the shot is from waist level is just that he continued to film while walking down the stairs.

I think what happened is a little over the top, though not dramatically so. On the other hand, and assuming, as Kevin seems to, that the apprehended guy really was a tagger, I just don't get people. You get caught tagging, and you're clearly under someone else's control, yet you continue to yell belligerently rather than trying to conciliate. The tagger is an incredible asshole.

If anything that happened here was assault, a jury can decide that, and I support holding cops and citizen 'law enforcers' accountable.

But I think a key point is that law breakers should damn well cooperate when they're apprehended. Struggling against three angry guys who caught you breaking the law is one of the dumbest things I can even imagine doing.

I checked out the link provided above. Of the tapes made here in Chicago that I could see, one was them making an "arrest" of some guy taking a hit of weed on a platform (and their claim that he "swung" at them which warrented the "arrest") and the other was of them standing around an empty Logan Square station and scanning the area as if, I guess, some degenerate was going to come running down the tracks through the tunnel and assault someone. Are these guys restricted to only the CTA stations? Because if they're looking for something to do that would REALLY make a difference, they could patrol Howard street any night of the week. This past weekend, for example, there was a shootout right in front of the police. There are street muggings, "goonings" (where a bunch of teen thugs just jump on a random person), drug sales, gambling in the park, all illegal. Why not give the train a break, fells and hit the streets where the real trouble is? Hell, if you can slow it down there, it might not reach the el train. A tagger is the least of our problems.

While I don't disgree with you "Dude", the organization was started in the 70's by a guy wanting to make the NYC subways safer. I think they are just following their organization's roots and mission statement.

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WE ONLY USED AS MUCH FORCE AS WAS NEEDED,
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Using force to detain someone who (allegedly) is a vandal isn't a matter of "need". It's a matter of "want".

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KEEP IN MIND HE COULD OF KILLED HIMSELF OR US IF WE FELL BETWEEN THE TRAIN CARS. WE COULD NOT TAKE CHANCES.
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Apparently the TO was aware of a problem, and the train was not going to suddenly pull out of the station. But increasing the amount of force being used was not the only choice to keep from being pulled into more danger. Letting go was the other choice.

We're not talking about self defense here. We're talking about vigilanties trying to detain an alleged vandal.

Where is the line drawn? Would they have done the same if they caught someone littering? Eating or drinking? Listening to a radio without headphones?

While such a show of force may have been justified in self defense or the defense of others, we're not even talking about a crime against a person having taken place. We're talking, at most, about vandalism. (And we don't even know if that's true, either.)

They could have called the police, and if the suspects had not voluntarily waited, they could have followed them. Assulting the suspects to detain them was not necessary.

What's next? Citizens doing PIT manuvers on motorists suspected of violating traffic laws?

Vigilantes endanger us all. A struggle like this could have resulted in personal injury to bystanders. The suspect could have escalated their own self-defense to a level that could have resulted in serious injuries to others. What if he had a gun or knife? He has a right to defend himself, too.

Essentially, while I don't see any evidence of the alleged property vandalism that lead to this, I do see the GA's engaging in an assult. Even if the victim of the assult was engaging in vandalism, they do not have justification for what they did to him.

Their duty is to observe, and report. They have the right to defend themselves, as well as assist in the defense of others. They do not have the right to forcefully detain a suspect of a property crime (kidnapping), nor do they have the right to assult someone who allegedly was engaged in vandalism.

Hoodlums like the GA's in this video should be prosecuted. They're not heros. They endanger us all.

Observe and report. That's all they should be doing. Using force to detain and assult alleged vandals crosses the line big time. The crime they committed is greater than the vandalism they allegedly withnessed.

Graffiti is defacement but it's not a true crime. Vigilante groups should be protecting others against robbery, assault, theft, etc. Many trains and stations of the CTA are extremely dirty and run down to being with, what does it matter if there are marker scribbles?
How about fighting against litter? Everyday I see all ages of people throwing their trash on trains and the streets - a much bigger problem than taggers.

Agreed 100% with Rusty.

So what they were tagging graffiti, this wouldnt be chicago if there was not tagging everywhere. Personally I smile when I see some really good graffiti, some of it is really beautiful and it gives that urban city feel. The guardian angels is a joke anyways....they have always been a joke and thats what people see them as.

Seeing this makes me more affraid to go out, wat if these people decide they don't like the good people too, are we going to take it on their word that the beat someone up becouse they commited a crime.

"While I don't disgree with you "Dude", the organization was started in the 70's by a guy wanting to make the NYC subways safer. I think they are just following their organization's roots and mission statement."

Yeah, Chris, I remember the origins with Curtis Sliwa and I even remember when they first formed a chapter here (I was in college). I know their original missions was to patrol the subways of NYC but I thought maybe they had changed their mission statement since that time and branched out. In fact, I just checked their website and they include this: "WHO WE ARE
The Guardian Angels
are volunteers who provide public safety and education in our neighborhood streets our schools and cyberspace."

That doesn't sound like they're limiting themselves to the subways. So in that case...Howard Street.

http://www.guardianangels.org/about.html

There have been two rapes in the area around the Western Stop in the last couple months - and they are wasting their time on THIS?!?! The Logan stop has also seen a number of muggings by the Spaulding exit of the station as well.

As mentioned above, if they are serious about preventing crime it would make a lot more sense to be on the street by the station looking for suspicious activity than to be wasting time with taggers.

It is unclear how much the tagger is trying to get away - at the point the video begins he may be resisting the force being applied to him and not trying to get away.

Interesting viewpoint on tagging, which appears to be in contrast to the majority of this thread:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28214

"Graffiti is defacement but it's not a true crime..."

I'd argue that.

1) It could be a threat, if it's a gang-related tag.

2) It has a real economic cost -- the cost to the CTA to remove the tag from the car.

3) It can have a follow cost -- if tags aren't removed from a car, and causes people to be less willing to use the CTA, then the CTA loses that revenue.

Just as burglary can deprive you of economic gain with no physical harm, graffiti causes a similar issue for the CTA. Thus, it could (and if we don't want tags on CTA property, should) be considered a crime.

"CTA does not recommend that any private citizen engage someone they suspect of criminal behavior on the system. Individuals are advised to notify personnel immediately"

Has CTA notified their personnel that they're supposed to act on customer information regarding crime? My experience has been that Customer "Assistants" and some bus operators don't want to get involved. I'd like to know if handling crime is outlined in job descriptions and if disciplinary action for refusing to assist a customer is clearly described.

I've had too many experiences where CTA personnel act as though it's not their job to deal with crime on the system. Until CTA makes sure their employees are assisting customers in dealing with perpetrators, they open themselves up to vigilantes filling in the gaps.

I think that what 3rd rail did was befriend a communtiy and then stabb it in the back. The same people he choose to befriend he is now out there arresting him. Everyone knows Dj Turd Rail is a Toy and is looking for the limelight thats why hes taping it.Ask him why he didnt show up to court and why the writer is already free. Because he knows deep in his heart he was wrong to gloriy the arrest.

Interesting, we have taggers showing up on the site now...

Did anyone else noticed over half way through the video, they pulled someone up from in between the cars, apparently down on the tracks?

Oh, and on a completely unrelated note:

There is a ton of construction activity on the Tower 18 replacement today. Lots of cranes, bull dozers, areas sectioned off. Perhaps this will come online soon.

"1) It could be a threat, if it's a gang-related tag."

True it could be a "threat" in some sense, but even someone spraypainting a gang tag may not warrant an immediate beatdown from the Guardian Angels (from a rival gangmember, maybe...)

"Thus, it could (and if we don't want tags on CTA property, should) be considered a crime."

No one ever said it wasn't a crime (and if they did they were wrong). What I think most people are debating is the response to the "crime". If you see someone spraypainting or using a marker on a CTA car, do you have the right to wrestle them to the ground?

[Interesting viewpoint on tagging, which appears to be in contrast to the majority of this thread:]

I don't see what's "interesting" about the viewpoint in that article. In fact, if I didn't already know who Dennis Prager was, I'd suspect that the article was an Onion-like parody of conservative thinking.

This part I thought was especially absurd:

[...the moment one sees graffiti, one knows one has entered a largely lawless and violent environment where thugs terrorize innocents....]

Simply put, if you hold this viewpoint, it's a dead giveaway that at least one of two things are true:

1) You live such a sheltered life that you've never noticed that graffiti is common pretty much everywhere, and/or

2) You're constantly wetting your pants due to your amazing capacity to be "terrorized."

I grew up in a mostly white, upper middle class area of suburban Jacksonville, Florida, and graffiti was not noticeably less common there as it is in Rogers Park, where I live now. I don't think either area can be reasonably described as "largely lawless" or "violent."

Speaking more to the point, if you find yourself thinking that a can of spray paint is a threat to "the foundations of higher civilization," then you're more misanthropic than I could ever hope to be. Prager does say that he finds "higher civilization" (whatever that term even means) to be "fragile," and boy, he's not kidding if he thinks that some minor vandalism can bring the whole thing down.

Speaking of tape, duct tape would have allowed them to detain the suspect without using excessive force.
I think grafitti should be used to help the C.T.A. close its budget gap.They could sell personalized versions of station logo merchandise with letters added or crossed out.Damen becomes "Damon ".Grand becomes " Grandma ". Chicago becomes " Chica ",etc.etc.
Along the same lines they could sell "Urban Camoflauge " bomber jackets with grafitti graphics and imagery.If station logos were used California or Chicago could be featured for maximum mass appeal. Get some local celeb like " Kanye West " to wear one and see if they don't sell like crazy.

It probably shouldn't be Kanye West since he dresses like Archie.

My use grafitti to help the C.T.A. post apparently didn't go through.
Anyway,they could sell personaliazed versions of station logo merchandise where letters were added or crossed out.Damen becomes Damon ,Grand becomes Grandma ,Chicago becomes Chica,etc.e,etc.Along the same lines, " Urban Camoflauge " bomber jackets with grafitti graphics and imagery could be sold.These could use the California or Chicago station logos for maximum mass appeal.Have some trend sending local celeb wear one and see if they don't sell like crazy.

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but even someone spraypainting a gang tag may not warrant an immediate beatdown from the Guardian Angels (from a rival gangmember, maybe...)
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The actions of the GA's shown in this tape do make them look more like a gang than a citizens safety watch.

And that's the crux of why so many cities over the years have been at odds with the GA's. They may pretend they are out there to protect people, but they do so using methods that a gang uses to protect it's members.

I don't want a bunch of thugs out there pretending to be my white-hat protectors. I'll support any citizen's watch group that sticks to observe and report, and only engages in physical confrontations to protect lifes that are in immediate harm -- assuming that they also are trained in ways to de-escalate a situation as a prefered method over direct intervention.

I think we all know the police have a hard enough time finding enough stable professionals to protect us, and they do a lot more screening and training than the GA's do. Can anyone really want a group of volunteer vigilanties using gang methods to be out there running wild in the name of protecting us? Does this really protect us?

Observe and report. If they're so wild that they can't stick to that agenda, then they need to be considered just another gang.

Honestly I don't think they smacked those taggers around enough. We didn't see any blood did we? =)

Sorry, taggers get no sympathy from me.

[Sorry, taggers get no sympathy from me.]

I don't think that sympathy for taggers is really the issue here.

By the way, Rusty raises another excellent point, which is that the GAs are almost certainly not trained in how to handle these things properly. If one of these confrontations would get out of hand, bystanders would be put at real risk.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56023370489#/group.php?gid=56023370489

Good for them. Doing the jobs that the police can't/won't do. Groups like these are hopefully a deterrent to other criminals on trains. Some people are complaining that its just a tagger but I'm sure if they witnessed a mugging they would have acted on that too. Crime is crime if you don't enforce tagging as a crime then our collective threshold for what is a minimum level of crime has gone up, so then the next minimum would eventually just become "Just a Mugger". Stay strong and call out criminals!

I would like to point out that they also "tag" the CTA themselves. They are always putting up flyers about themselves on train cars and busses. I realize that its not permenant and does not require cleanup, but its no different than tagging with gang logos.

Your concern for the welfare of criminals and not for citizens helping you protect your property is so heartwarming it makes me puke. Are you just embarrassed that the CTA can't protect its own property or people? That's exactly how the NY transit felt when the Angels started there in 1979, embarrassed. How exactly would you detain a criminal? Or would you? Would you be too afraid? Would you let him run off as you call the police waiting? What if the criminal was raping someone or beating up an old lady? What would you do? Ask the criminal politely if he would be so kind as to refrain from further criminal activity? What if that vandal had a knife in his pocket or gun? What if he had stabbed or shot these Angels? Then you would argue, they should not have detained him in the first place? What if someone broke into your home and threatened your family or tagged your car or house? The Angels believe their community is their home and they will protect it and arrest criminals. Instead of persecuting them as being too rough, why not support them? Oh, it looks like they went overboard when the Angel twisted the guys leg? Are you f-in kidding me??? Have you ever seen MMA fighting??? That's nothing!!! The criminal was fighting back and if he gotten the upper hand he could have retrieved a weapon and used it. I'd like to wrestle you any day to show you how easy it is for me to take out a weapon and use it on you if you can't control me with a joint lock or submission hold. At least they didn't shoot the guy in the back like the BART police you idiot. These guys are unarmed. That's courage you don't have sitting at your computer writing stupid posts.

The force used may have been slightly excessive, but I couldn't disagree more with all those comments about only doing this to a 'tagger'. When potential criminals start seeing our beloved and innocent taggers getting arrested, that location will become less appealing for muggings, rape, etc.

NYC's subways became safer when they started really cracking down on "the little things", of which the fucktard taggers played a big part.

I hate to nitpick, but for reference, this would be battery. Assault is akin to a threat, like charing at someone as if you'll hit them, but being restrained before you deliver the punch. Battery is actually connecting.

"What if someone broke into your home and threatened your family or tagged your car or house?"

I would respond to both very differently. My garage door is regularly tagged, I paint over it. It takes me all of 2 minutes. That is a COMPLETELY different thing than threatening my family, and I would deal with that situation accordingly.

If the Hell's, excuse me, "Guardian" angels are so concerned with tagging why don't they spend some time cleaning up the tags instead of standing on platforms looking tough? The whole video just looks like some idiot guys on a power trip roughing up an idiot art school student. They may be doing some good things, but this does not look like an example of that to me.

BTW - is there any video of the guy actually tagging? Or a photo of the tag? Was ay attempt made to clean it off?

I think there's also a racist element here. You see black and Latino Angels arresting a white dude. It seems to me, white folks will defend their own kind, even if they're criminals against those scarey rough blacks and Latinos. I imagine if the Angels were all white and the tagger was black, the white people would be all applauding saying, "Hey now, by golly, that black man could have murdered those Angels and probably was on PCP and crack." Yeah, you feel so sorry for that poor white tagger, it's this cultural repression of his heritage and the black man being in charge that forced him to express his repressed identity through vandalizing public property. He needs Prozac and therapy not arrest! By golly, save our young white men from the ethnic Angels! This young white man is our Rodney King. Let us riot by burning down all the Starbucks that have exploited our culture's caffeine dependency for all these years! Our loss of cultural hegemony is due to the sinister caffeinating of young white men! The new ethnic oligarchs are keeping us down by not allowing us to tag!!!!

You've got to be kidding me...instead of being appreciative to these guys we are going to berate them. I bet if these guys were tagging your house/garage you'd be thrilled to have the angels stop them however they needed to. I personally wish there was more of them to assist the Police. There was a comment on the news that what the Angels did was illegal...since when is a citizens arrest illegal? I always love how people complain until things happen to them then it's a different story. THANK YOU ANGELS FOR ALL YOU DO, IF MY FAMILY OR I ARE EVER IN TROUBLE I HOPE YOUR THERE FOR US. BE CAREFUL AND DON'T LET ALL OF THESE RIDICULOUS COMPLAINTS STOP YOU FROM HELPING THOSE IN NEED.

GAs: good that you want your streets and trains and platforms to be safe. Very bad that you yourselves make them less safe by escalating nonviolent situations into violent ones.

The difference between you and the police is that the police have training, communications, and overwhelming force at their disposal. This allows them to escalate situations with a minimum risk to passersby and innocent bystanders.

You don't have that. You have guts, and that's good. But you should value your own lives and guts enough to take more effective action than this. If you didn't have other emotional reasons for engaging in this way, you might see that you could be ten times as effective in other ways.

You're taking risks you don't even understand with these patterns of behavior. Besides the risk of being individually and collectively bankrupted by lawsuits, or losing your life or liberty to a borderline decision by either side in the heat of a bad moment, there's the danger of losing your sense of when violence is appropriate, and becoming a total loose cannon.

Would those consequences be worth it in exchange for like 90 days supervision of a tagger or what-have-you? Don't sell your lives so cheap! Have some self-respect.

"I would like to point out that they also "tag" the CTA themselves. They are always putting up flyers about themselves on train cars and busses. I realize that its not permenant and does not require cleanup, but its no different than tagging with gang logos."

I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest thing I've seen on this blog in a long time. Unless of course, it was a joke. In that case, bad joke!

The CTA doesn't do anything about anything, so it's good to see someone trying. That being said these guys and their videos look like something you'd see on CAN TV around midnight.

"I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest thing I've seen on this blog in a long time. Unless of course, it was a joke. In that case, bad joke!"

Not a joke. If a gang member puts their logo on somthing, we call it tagging. If a vigilante group does it we think its ok? They are marking their territory the same as any gang. They are covering up the advertisements that businesses pay the CTA to put up there. Someone does have to go through the train and take them down eventually.

And furthermore, they used less force in the video where they helped get the guy who had a gun in the station. Seriously, if you can't see that using 4-5 guys to take down and physically restrain a tagger is excessive, then you are not thinking clearly. Twisting the guys leg was uncalled for. I've been involved in many apprehensions of violent shoplifters. I've been maced, kneed in the crotch, punched, spit on and verbally assaulted. We never had to resort to physical violence to subdue a shoplifter.

They are not CTA employees, they are not police officers, they are not security guards. Their training is not overseen by any regulators. Do you realize how much training and certification is needed just to be a security guard? Even one that does not carry a gun has to have multiple certifications. This is why groups like the GAs make me nervous. It's not due to race. It's not due to me being a criminal looking to get away with somthing. It's not because I think that people should not be punished for crimes or citizens protected from crimes. There are no real enforced checks and balances on these men and women from outside their own system which could allow them to overstep their boundries and face little to no punishment.

I wonder who Ed is addressing with his comments? Or if he even knows?

"I would like to point out that they also "tag" the CTA themselves. They are always putting up flyers about themselves on train cars and busses. I realize that its not permenant and does not require cleanup, but its no different than tagging with gang logos."

You managed to contradict yourself within the same sentence. Nice going.

So is there video of them apprehending some knife-weilding thug or some guy with a gun? Because on the 3rdrail's youtube link, all I see is them standing around and bugging some guy who was allegedly smoking a little weed.

Marijuana and a magic marker. If this is how they're keeping me safe, they're not doing me any favors. Where are their big busts? And since their website says they're concerned with protecting the neighborhoods, tell them to start hitting the streets and give the subways a break once in a while.